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China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

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Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#261

This is a very strange article considering that Llama, the mother of all open-weight models, has led to anything but success for Meta. Also, enterprises don't give a rip if models are open. They care about zero data retention (and sticking with whatever vendor they're already using). This blog post is suspiciously close to being a restatement of what Alex Karp recently said on CNBC[0]. It's important to remember he's…

Isn’t it basically impossible to run the newer high quality Chinese models locally, even for a corporation? The better they get, the more they need a data center. So, the ‘better’ Chinese AI gets , the more it will just be a service run on Chinese hardware competing with ‘our’ lower latency AIs . The open source character of the models is irrelevant if you need a nuclear powered data center for inference. In the end…

> The better they get, the more they need a data center.

That's true.

> So, the ‘better’ Chinese AI gets , the more it will just be a service run on Chinese hardware competing with ‘our’ lower latency AIs .

This is not. Them being open models means that any hosting provider in the world can host them as well. You get to pick and choose the provider the same way you'd pick and choose where to run a Linux server.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#262
post #6

I’m suspicious of some quotes here, “80% of startups using Chinese models,” doesn’t seem quite right to me. I just interviewed at several startups and they were all using the US models. Maybe they have some minor use of Chinese models but the bread-and-butter of most of these businesses model use is the Claude and Codex subscriptions.

The full quote: > When entrepreneurs walk into the offices of Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), a big American venture-capital firm, the odds these days are that their startups are using AI models made in China. “I’d say 80% chance [they are] using a Chinese open-source model,” says Martin Casado, a partner at a16z. This is very different from what the author portrays. It may be the case that many pre-funded startups are u…

There may be confusion between 'product tech' and 'development tooling'. It's entirely plausible most of the startups that are A: building AI tech, B: early stage, and C: raising from top Sand Hill Road VCs, are currently prototyping their product tech concepts starting from open weight models.

A VC partner meeting with early-stage founders is focused on the viability, uniqueness and defensibility of the IP tech stack not what tooling the coders are using. The developers could be using Claude or GPT 5.6 to develop a tech stack based on open weight models.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#263

I do not understand the logic going into these companies. Flagrantly violate all IP in Human history, essentially claiming domain over the heritage of Humanity... And... Try to privatize it? When the technology -- and data -- are both public domain to begin with? It is ming-boggling stupidity. If there is talk of bailouts as the dust settles, there it would just be further evidence the system is ethically, financiall…

At least China is being consistent: they do not give a single f*ck about intellectual property or copyright…but they also give away all this distilled knowledge away for free.

I’m not an American so I don’t particularly like the idea of giving an American cartel of AI companies having so much power over this technology.

I don’t necessarily buy into the “China bad”, “they are communists” and all that BS either.

I will call a spade a spade and say that in this instance, what China is doing is a net good for the world, ideology be damned.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#264

I do think open-weights models are going to "win" in the sense that they're probably going to be dominant when the hardware to run them becomes affordable. (which might be a while). Although I guess you could probably rent the GPU's yourself to hypothetically save on costs. (I'm a little skeptical -- I've heard of companies doing this and the inference bills are surprisingly high -- assuming the sources are correct.…

The business model is making your country more innovative, which makes its citizens richer

Americans used to do that too, spectacularly.

Just consider the two alternatives: one is your industrial sector with this incredible new automation and analysis tool available for free. The other is one where it has to pay huge chunks of its resources to overseas companies.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#265

AI models cost tens of millions to train. Offering them for free won’t justify the upfront costs. The Chinese model of model training/open sourcing only makes sense in the context of the overall strategy of undercutting American frontier labs’ profit margins.

I don't think this is necessarily going to prove to be true.

I often see the sentiment: "the Chinese strategy only makes sense in the context of undercutting American labs' profit margins".

If, for example, you are a company with a near-monopoly on "serving video content", and you feel reasonably confident about retaining a decent slice of the serving-video-content market (Google in the west is an example, Tencent in the east), then training video models on your dataset - and releasing them freely - makes an awful lot of sense.

Free tools to create with mean more video content. In this hypothetical, you're reasonably certain that any video content which does get created will also be watched on your platform.

That is a net positive. The question becomes: How many watch-hours earns back the cost of training a model? It's probably not really that many, especially when you have a near-monopoly on a billion sets of eyes.

It's also a net-positive if people build better video models from research you release, because - again - you are reasonably certain that the even-more-innovative content those models produce will be watched on your platform.

It really begins to make strategic sense if your company is in a GPU-poor environment. Your costs cease at the point you upload a model if your users are running it themselves. You don't have to serve the model. The content is still created.

You are also less likely, I think, to alienate human creators whose work the model was trained on if the model is not sold back to them as a subscription, or by the token, but given for free as a tool.

This frames the conversation very differently. It creates, I think, less of an "us vs them" dynamic, and more of a rising tide.

It's true that it is also beneficial that these models undercut (especially in language models) American companies. But, generally, Americans are not the customers of Chinese companies releasing models. They are already serving a huge volume of customers in a complex, existing marketplace.

The full picture is much more nuanced than simply a geopolitical desire to undercut US labs, and there are several other reasons the strategy can make logical sense.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deciding to use open models over closed models is a business decision.

Using the cheaper model is also a business decision. We don't know why they are using the Chinese models: openness or money or both or a third one?

Third options include

- fine-tuning

- running in your environment

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#267
The US business model for commercializing LLMs seems unsustainable to me. We are saying that they are creating trillions of dollars in value out of:

1. A model that for the most part is public and available to anyone. 2. A situation where the model’s success mostly comes from throwing as much data and computational resources at it as possible.

It seems that either of those assumptions could crumble quickly and unexpectedly. What if the AI paradigm changes completely and we no longer need GPUs? Or what if someone with enough determination decides to create a better model and sell it more cheaply, or free?

I don't know man, this looks scary to me.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May be corporations should start having their open models running in-house. There might be a huge oportunity there. But the big price is AGI and who gets there first, right?

We aren’t getting anything like AGI in this current cycle of AI innovations. At least not what I think most people imagine when someone says “advanced general intelligence” Which is what we all called AI before the nomenclature goalpost moved

it's artificial general intelligence, not advanced. the point is that they'll be smart across the board at some point, super-intelligence is a whole separate issue.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#269
I'm new to this AI stuff, and I have a question. Aren't the weights the whole model? and knowing which nodes on which layers they connect to, which I assume is part of the weight definition.

So if you have the weights, don't you have the whole model? you don't have the data it was trained on, but the model is effectively open if the weights are open, right? What else is there other than the weights, is what I'm asking.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#270
post #6

I’m suspicious of some quotes here, “80% of startups using Chinese models,” doesn’t seem quite right to me. I just interviewed at several startups and they were all using the US models. Maybe they have some minor use of Chinese models but the bread-and-butter of most of these businesses model use is the Claude and Codex subscriptions.

The full quote: > When entrepreneurs walk into the offices of Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), a big American venture-capital firm, the odds these days are that their startups are using AI models made in China. “I’d say 80% chance [they are] using a Chinese open-source model,” says Martin Casado, a partner at a16z. This is very different from what the author portrays. It may be the case that many pre-funded startups are u…

This quote sounds like it’s about companies building products on AI to serve a tweaked or harnessed version of that to others not the developers in those companies model of choice for coding.
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