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Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

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Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#81

Post by dudefeliciano »

jongjong wrote: post #44
tialaramex wrote: post #21

To "win" a war you must have specific and measurable goals. If your politicians start a war but cannot articulate such goals, you're going to lose. They'll assure you they will win, but they've already lost. They are bad at their jobs, why did you hire these morons?

The goal is to sell weapons during the war; then afterwards, sell loans to rebuild what the weapons have destroyed... And sometimes it's also to control access to natural resources or trading routes. They don't care who it is who facilitates them on the other side of the ocean; be it a dictator or an 'elected' official. The lobbyists running the show in the background make money from both the destruction as well as t…

it's stupid because there are ways of turning a profit without killing thousands of people while turning your own country into a pariah ridiculed by the whole world. It's stupid because it's shortsighted.

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#82

Post by spwa4 »

bojan wrote: post #28
spacebanana7 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “special military operation” euphemism that both the US/Russia used in Iran/Ukraine does have a degree of truth. These wars are really military engagements with directional objectives rather than truly existential wars with binary outcomes. Modern wars really resemble Rome’s Germanic wars more than the Punic ones.

Russia's goal is direct annexation of about quarter of the Ukrainian territory and installing a lifelong puppet regime to control the other three quarters. Ukrainians stand to lose not just their voice and any semblance of economic prosperity, but also their very identity. With the exception of extreme cases like Gaza, it doesn't get more binary than that.

Russia's goals have far evolved over the course of the war, and started out comically ridiculous, prompting a great many people to ask questions about the information "bubble" around Putin. Over the past year, I believe most people would agree Russia has lost a LOT of ground when it comes to their war aims, even if not that much territory.

2014: seize Crimea (success, although it no longer serves any purpose) and Sevastopol (total failure, Sevastopol can no longer serve the Russian black sea fleet, and when it comes to the other goal: keep NATO out of the black sea, it's an even bigger failure. Russia has lost control of the skies above the black sea completely and are losing control over the sea of Azov, by withdrawing air defenses. Now go look on the map where the sea of Azov is to see the magnitude of this failure), prevent Ukraine from approaching NATO and EU (complete failure is putting it very mildly), keep Ukraine unstable (succeeded, until Euromaidan revolution, ie. actually this is a failure)

2022: maintain control over Crimea (looks to be failing, as in Ukraine still controls Crimea's water supply), build a land bridge to Crimea (successfull, except that they can't use their land bridge for anything), seize control over Ukraine's government ("denazify" Ukraine), demilitarize Ukraine (as in Ukraine accepts no to have an army. Obviously total and complete failure), and prevent Ukraine and others from coming closer to NATO (obviously total failure, and not just in Ukraine)

In June 2026, ie. about 4 weeks ago, Russia once again confirmed these goals.

Oh and they were going to do this in 3 days. Then in 3 weeks. Then in 2 months. Then they stopped making predictions. Today is day 1608 of their 3-day attempt.

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#83

Post by jimnotgym »

wasfgwp wrote: post #51
fitsumbelay wrote: post #38

... possibly due to the lying bumblefucks who start them. George W Bush was a lying bumblefuck who talked himself into being a war criminal who can't travel to certain countries. Trump is the kind of lying bumblefuck who lets a dependent bumblefuck that Netanyahu is to talk him into the dumbest and most embarrassing military engagement in US history of my lifetime, possibly only next to Grenada npr, btw, is in some s…

Bush won the conventional war in Iraq and generally the US military was quite good at that part (same in Afghanistan or the first Gulf War). They had no clue what to do after the war was won and made a complete mess of it. Trump hasn’t got the slightest idea how to even get as far as Bush did..

So you are saying the military is competent, but the civil administration is not? You might have his the nail on the head

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#84

Post by wasfgwp »

dh2022 wrote: post #74
wasfgwp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bush won the conventional war in Iraq and generally the US military was quite good at that part (same in Afghanistan or the first Gulf War). They had no clue what to do after the war was won and made a complete mess of it. Trump hasn’t got the slightest idea how to even get as far as Bush did..

Hmm, US did not destroy the Taliban in Afghanistan. So I do not think US won much in Afghanistan (for ex. bin Laden was killed in Pakistani)

They occupied the country and mostly/almost did accomplish that. 2002 to ~2005 were reasonably clam.

Then their failures to bulld a stable government brought the Taliban back.

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#85

Post by ryandvm »

spacebanana7 wrote: post #60
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean Russia definitely keeps losing very many soldiers every day, I don't think that is comparable at all. It's completely different from US vs Iran.

Rome lost loads of soldiers in the Germanic wars too. The parallel is that these wars are too expensive (for a non-existential conflict) to take to fulfilment, but also can't easily be disengaged from.

> but also can't easily be disengaged from

I guess it depends on what you mean by "easily", but Putin could very much just say "fuck this" and turn off the war machine in one day and it's not at all clear to me that there would be much consequential blowback other than the personal humiliation of one man.

Would other countries now decide to attack Russia? Of course not. Would the oligarchs flip out and have him assassinated? No. Would the West disassemble the sanctioning apparatus? Eventually.

But the real downside is just simple humiliation and to prevent that, they will continue sacrificing young men.

Politics is a fucked up game.

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#86

Post by jimnotgym »

aqme28 wrote: post #34
rbanffy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A mobilisation such as what we saw in WWII is unthinkable because it'd crash markets. That's one reason.

That has nothing to do with it. Congress should still have to declare an operation like what is happening in Iran.

How would a future president ever be motivated to give power back to Congress I wonder? A coup by congress?

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#87

Post by RenThraysk »

dudefeliciano wrote: post #75
RenThraysk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the goal is to deny Iran nukes then it's been succeeding.

if anything they are looking at North Korea and confirming their belief that nuclear weapons are indispensable for their sovereignty.

Or at Ukraine that gave them up.

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#88

Post by afiori »

jimnotgym wrote: post #86
aqme28 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has nothing to do with it. Congress should still have to declare an operation like what is happening in Iran.

How would a future president ever be motivated to give power back to Congress I wonder? A coup by congress?

as the term rule of law suggest the legislative branch has the power to make the rules

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#89

Post by wasfgwp »

jimnotgym wrote: post #83
wasfgwp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bush won the conventional war in Iraq and generally the US military was quite good at that part (same in Afghanistan or the first Gulf War). They had no clue what to do after the war was won and made a complete mess of it. Trump hasn’t got the slightest idea how to even get as far as Bush did..

So you are saying the military is competent, but the civil administration is not? You might have his the nail on the head

Not really. Or rather not on the same level. Both the government and the military were reasonably competent when it came to winning the conventional wars back then. Both failed at handling the insurgency phase (the political leadership to a larger extent).

Now? Who knows, I guess the military is doing reasonably fine given the constraints they operate under but I doubt competent is the right word.

What is clear is that Bush (in combination with his administration) was pretty much Napoleon compared to Trump, Hegseth & co.

Re: Why is it so hard for the U.S. to win wars?

#90

Post by enopod_ »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #57
enopod_ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Ukraine it's very much an existential war. If they lose, Ukraine will cease to exist. The only way of winning is, well, winning this war. It is also very much a real war, with hundreds of thousands of deaths on both sides, a true massacre not seen in Europe since WW2. Trumps stupid war on Iran on the other hand is really just some air strikes, and Iran can win by just not losing, which is easy, because the US wil…

It's interesting how casually we replace concern for the population with concern for the political entity. No, the Ukrainian identity will not cease to exist with the replacement of the political entity.

Ask Ukrainians what they think about that. Putin made it more than clear that he wants to erase the Ukrainian identity. [1] In this case, the political entity of Ukraine represents the Ukrainian population, which wants to be free, democratic, Europe-oriented, and last but not least, never ever be under Russian dictatorship again.

Russias attitude towards Ukraine has turned borderline genocidal since the start of this war.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Rus...

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