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The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

phoronix.com

51–60 of 80 posts

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#51

> While the US and EU patents around MPEG-4 Part 2 expired in recent years, until today there remained one patent still active in Brazil. Since MPEG-this Part that is hard to keep straight, this is the MPEG standard backing Xvid and DivX codecs. So let's encode video and torrent like it's 2002!

Time do get out the old CD of The.Matrix.1999-DVDrip(aXXo).Xvid.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#52
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once the patents expire, I expect to see H.264 become the JPEG of video codecs - it may not be the most efficient format available, but it's widely supported, relatively easy to encode/decode, and good enough quality for many use cases. (MP3 is in a similar place. AAC and Opus are technically superior, but everything supports MP3.)

>(MP3 is in a similar place. AAC and Opus are technically superior, but everything supports MP3.) Actually MP3 is more like the H.263 / Divx here. AAC-LC is more like H.264. The difference in support of AAC-LC and MP3 is near zero, both in terms of hardware and software. While AAC-LC is vastly more superior. AAC-LC has been declared patent free ( all patent expired ) by Redhat for 9 years already. The only part that…

I was under the impression that the new FFmpeg nmr codec indeed outperforms the Apple one in every bitrate with Google's new Zimtohrli benchmark as well as ViSQOL. That would suggest Apple doesn't really have to open source anything, we should be good?

Still, I don't see the point. Unlike video, audio decoding is so cheap you can practically do it on software even on fairly constrained devices. So really only in places like Bluetooth headphones where codec complexity can have a direct impact on battery life does it actually factor in. I say for most purposes people should just be going Opus today: it is far ahead of basically anything else. In most cases, for old devices you can simply ship software codecs instead.

Hell, Wikipedia ships video software codecs in the form of ogv.js, mainly because a lot of Apple devices wouldn't expose VP8/VP9 support even on SoCs that had hardware support for it, and that works surprisingly well. So for something like Opus, obviously it is trivial even on older hardware, even in the confines of a web browser. (And of course, Wikipedia uses it for Opus as well, but my understanding is this is only necessary for 1-2% of Internet traffic since most devices/browsers support Opus these days)

That may leave some niches where AAC-LC is still a reasonable choice, like maybe old PMPs. However, I reckon that there are probably a lot of older PMPs that in fact, don't natively support AAC. For example, the trusty Sansa Clip+ from 2009 doesn't have AAC support. If you were to install third-party software such as Rockbox, well, then you'd have Opus support.

So for audio, I think barring any specific reason not to, the meta is to basically always choose Opus.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think video resolution will increase all that much in the future, except for niche uses, as the resolution of the human eye becomes a limiting factor.

You may be underestimating the desire to earn through differentiation. Assuming the product companies accept the plateau on resolution (I agree it’s likely), there are many ways to exploit the other stuff. Colour space, tacling each type of compression artifact, additional channels (probly not long until we have HDR RGBW), etc etc and those will each come with their committees made of patent-hungry companies seeing n…

I don’t think it matters in a practical sense. Our streaming overlords have already shown that by crippling the effective color space of supposedly 4K video they care little for quality of broadcast. Crushed blacks and smeared video are all you’ll get no matter what the standards say. They were, are and remain terrible on 1080 video, 4K is a farce.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#54
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just that I think the h264 long tail will be one of the longest long tails of a video codec. I think MPEG-1 and 2 (from which MP3 comes) might be even longer.

MPEG-2 video is still very much alive. In the US, almost all terrestrial OTA broadcast (ATSC 1.0) and all SD channels on cable systems. Even Comcast VOD was all MPEG-2 (including HD) until they shut down the QAM version in 2023.

The way I see it, if you were to draw two graph lines showing the prevalence of H.262 and H.264 over time, it would show of course that H.262 has lasted much longer so far just by virtue of it being older yet still in active use, but the area under the H.264 line is probably already or tracking on being much larger, depending on many factors, such as how you quantify "prevalence".

I don't see H.262 as becoming completely irrelevant any time soon, so it's clearly had a hell of a run, but I expect H.264 to wind up having a similarly long tail. I am not sure I'd bet on it being longer, but I wouldn't bet against it either. I'm only of the opinion that H.264 will have one of the longest of any video codec, but perhaps not the longest.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#55
post #46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[the United States Congress shall have power] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Clause The purpose of the system as it was originally conceived was not to provide maximum economic extraction -- the purpose was to promote the progress of scie…

Interesting how you’ve chosen to interpret that section. When I was in law school we were taught what seemed obvious then and is obvious now: that Congress has the power to promote the progress of science and useful arts by giving authors and inventors exclusive right to the economic fruits of their works. You can argue about flaws in the system but it’s pretty laughable to suggest that copyrights and patents don’t e…

Copyrights and patents don’t exist for the purposes of maximum economic value extraction for inventors and authors.

They exist to maximize the production of scientific and artistic works and do so by incentivizing creators with a limited exclusionary property right over the created work.

If the goal of this particular section were to maximize what authors and inventors can extract from their creations then explicitly assigning to them the property rights in perpetuity of said creations would have been the way to ensure that outcome.

Given that they specifically wrote "by securing for limited Times" it is entirely reasonable to make this interpretation and I'm not sure why you weren't taught this interpretation in law school -- it's a pretty settled thing and there have been many times that this subject has come up in US courts over the years.

And this isn't so whack if you stop and think about it. There are all kinds of limitations on intellectual property rights.

Like take trade secret protection for exampple -- it has no term limit and no disclosure requirement. If maximum extraction were the goal then patents would look like trade secrets. Instead the bargain that the patent system forces on creators requires them to publish their invention and then hands the rights to that invention to the public after a finite period of time. The system is explicitly designed to be less extractive compared to others on purpose.

And if copyright is built for maximum extraction why does it carve out an affirmative defense in the form of fair use for others to use copyrighted works without paying? Same with first sale, same with the idea/expression dichotomy -- so much of the antisocial contemporary intellectual property regime is configured around providing people free access to the use of intellectual property.

> There is quite literally no other reason for granting a copyright or patent.

"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

It seems pretty clear to me from that sentence that the stated purpose of these laws was to drive the creation of science and art and that a limited time profit incentive being enshrined in law was merely a carrot to create an incentive for that.

The framers understood the complex interplay between property rights, freedoms, and incentives in driving innovation and creation.

Knowing that granting someone an exclusive right to something that isn't subject to finite physical limitations effectively denies everyone else in society that same right the framers still understood that it was necessary to abridge the freedoms of some to enrich society as a whole through the development of science and art.

In choosing to use the words "for limited times" the framers encoded the economic priority of the majority of society over the economic priority of the minority of creators into this section but they also did not give a specific time which to me speaks to their understanding of the complexity the interplay between all the factors and allowed for the possibility that they could change over time.

On damages: that's a non-sequitur. How a system enforces an entitlement once created tells you nothing about why it was created. Tort damages compensate plaintiffs but nobody woudl say that tort law exists to maximize plaintiff recovery.

It isn't in dispute that people respond to incentives. That's precisely why the size of the incentives and the configuration of the incentive structure matters and why we have things like term limits and fair use.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#56
post #54
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MPEG-2 video is still very much alive. In the US, almost all terrestrial OTA broadcast (ATSC 1.0) and all SD channels on cable systems. Even Comcast VOD was all MPEG-2 (including HD) until they shut down the QAM version in 2023.

The way I see it, if you were to draw two graph lines showing the prevalence of H.262 and H.264 over time, it would show of course that H.262 has lasted much longer so far just by virtue of it being older yet still in active use, but the area under the H.264 line is probably already or tracking on being much larger, depending on many factors, such as how you quantify "prevalence". I don't see H.262 as becoming comple…

For sure. Just YouTube alone is a vast ocean of H.264 bits.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#57
post #55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting how you’ve chosen to interpret that section. When I was in law school we were taught what seemed obvious then and is obvious now: that Congress has the power to promote the progress of science and useful arts by giving authors and inventors exclusive right to the economic fruits of their works. You can argue about flaws in the system but it’s pretty laughable to suggest that copyrights and patents don’t e…

Copyrights and patents don’t exist for the purposes of maximum economic value extraction for inventors and authors. They exist to maximize the production of scientific and artistic works and do so by incentivizing creators with a limited exclusionary property right over the created work. If the goal of this particular section were to maximize what authors and inventors can extract from their creations then explicitly…

> the goal of this particular section were to maximize what authors and inventors can extract from their creations then explicitly assigning to them the property rights in perpetuity of said creations would have been the way to ensure that outcome.

Actually it’s the opposite - both patents and copyrights expire after a period of time, which is the compromise we’ve reached between incentivising people to make money for themselves personally (giving them a legally protected right over their creations), and allowing wider society to benefit from inventions and scientific discovery. The fact that patents and copyrights do not exist in perpetuity points towards the idea that they exist to promote invention and scientific discovery in ways that can be commercially exploited but only for a limited time, usually by their creator or inventor (or his heirs under certain circumstances).

Not sure what else to tell you. This really isn’t that complicated or controversial, in the US at least.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#58
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility Just as the patent system intended: maximum extraction was enabled while the product was useful.

Intellectual property is total bullshit as a concept but I suppose patents are at least tolerable since they only last 10 to 20 years, unlike copyright which lasts for our lifetimes plus a million billion years.

I really have a hard time accepting software patents. Like amazon patenting the one click to buy shopping cart for example. Crazy Taxi patented a directional arrow... The infamous "nemesis" patent for shadow of mordor.

IDK.... its all bits and bytes. This seems to stifle innovation more than anything imo.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual property is total bullshit as a concept but I suppose patents are at least tolerable since they only last 10 to 20 years, unlike copyright which lasts for our lifetimes plus a million billion years.

I really have a hard time accepting software patents. Like amazon patenting the one click to buy shopping cart for example. Crazy Taxi patented a directional arrow... The infamous "nemesis" patent for shadow of mordor. IDK.... its all bits and bytes. This seems to stifle innovation more than anything imo.

Me too. Intellectual property in general is so incredibly absurd it's actually disgusting, but in the case of patents at least they actually end within a person's lifetime. That's the only way I can cope. Unlike copyright, you and I are going to reap the benefits of those patents one day.

Also, it's just not true that products will be useless by the time their patents expire. Example: semaglutide patents have already expired in my country. Competitors immediately entered the market and it led to prices free falling to about a third of what they used to be. These past few months I had drug reps visit every week with lower and lower prices to the point it became hilarious to watch them try to outmatch each other. So many people are going to benefit from this. Looking forward to the day tirzepatide gets its turn.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#60
post #55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting how you’ve chosen to interpret that section. When I was in law school we were taught what seemed obvious then and is obvious now: that Congress has the power to promote the progress of science and useful arts by giving authors and inventors exclusive right to the economic fruits of their works. You can argue about flaws in the system but it’s pretty laughable to suggest that copyrights and patents don’t e…

Copyrights and patents don’t exist for the purposes of maximum economic value extraction for inventors and authors. They exist to maximize the production of scientific and artistic works and do so by incentivizing creators with a limited exclusionary property right over the created work. If the goal of this particular section were to maximize what authors and inventors can extract from their creations then explicitly…

I'll come back to this - it's been awhile since I studied it and a cursory examination of my old notes has me spotting some misconceptions on my part as expressed here; at the very least I could have expressed myself better in both posts.
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