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When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

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Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#11

Post by MostlyStable »

usrusr wrote: post #4

Misleading title: they are using eminent domain to seize land for power lines to data centers. (emphasis mine) This is still quite debatable, but so much less so than the implied accusation that they would somehow sell out their privileges as subcontractors for the data centers themselves.

There have been some pretty egregious misuses of eminent domain in the past, but using it for infrastructure is pretty much the quintessential justification. That's basically the only reason to have eminent domain at all. Arguing against it when that's how it's being used is, in my opinion, essentially arguing against the very concept of eminent domain. Which one can totally choose to do! But they should be up front about it, if that's what's going on.

As for the title, I would go further than you do. This is not a misleading title. It is a lying title. I'm usually a pretty big believer in Scott Alexander's Bounded Distrust [0] concept for the media where they very rarely actually, technically lie. This title (although not the article itself), in my opinion crosses that line.

[0] https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/bounded-distrust

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#12

Post by protocolture »

Eufrat wrote: post #2

Are these AI-driven data centers actually getting built? I was reading about Kevin O’Leary’s initial proposal for his Utah data center and it’s just preposterous, it’s inconceivable anyone needs that much compute at any realistic demand level. The ask is so massively large that even the scaled down version is just absurd. We also have the Stargate UK data center that the Starmer government trumpeted before it was exp…

I think like 30 - 40% of all the announced projects turned out to be financially viable. Possibly less.

Conversely I see heaps of already in progress data center builds and upgrades tacking AI on as the purpose as just PR to sell colo.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#13

Post by [deleted] »

MostlyStable wrote: post #11
usrusr wrote: post #4

Misleading title: they are using eminent domain to seize land for power lines to data centers. (emphasis mine) This is still quite debatable, but so much less so than the implied accusation that they would somehow sell out their privileges as subcontractors for the data centers themselves.

There have been some pretty egregious misuses of eminent domain in the past, but using it for infrastructure is pretty much the quintessential justification. That's basically the only reason to have eminent domain at all. Arguing against it when that's how it's being used is, in my opinion, essentially arguing against the very concept of eminent domain. Which one can totally choose to do! But they should be up front…

[deleted]

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#14

Post by hack1312 »

wahern wrote: post #8
usrusr wrote: post #4

Misleading title: they are using eminent domain to seize land for power lines to data centers. (emphasis mine) This is still quite debatable, but so much less so than the implied accusation that they would somehow sell out their privileges as subcontractors for the data centers themselves.

It's more misleading than that. The power line that "may" "primarily"[1] serve a private data center has started construction "after nearly 20 years of planning, permitting and lawsuits"[2]. Per usual, NIMBYs continually move the goal posts and rely heavily on rhetoric to oppose a project. Data center opposition is providing them with great PR fodder, but they would have opposed these projects regardless. This is why…

When it’s your house and land being stolen we’ll see how you feel

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#15

Post by bob1029 »

usrusr wrote: post #4

Misleading title: they are using eminent domain to seize land for power lines to data centers. (emphasis mine) This is still quite debatable, but so much less so than the implied accusation that they would somehow sell out their privileges as subcontractors for the data centers themselves.

To be even more nuanced, the land is not typically taken entirely. The more typical solution is an easement with compensation for the land owner to cover the reduction in utility.

Transmission lines are pretty harmless when considering things that could be built instead. Zero emissions, silent, no illumination, etc.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#16

Post by toofy »

i definitely have internal debates on the idea of eminent domain and the nuances of wether i think its ok or not.

that said, i think i lean to it’s absolutely not ok to use eminent domain when the receivers of the benefits of the taken property are primarily one private industry and its owners.

i’d probably more often be ok with it if the benefits were mostly limited to being widely distributed to the people of that locality/region.

even then i go back and forth but i know for sure that plays a major part in how i see it.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#17

Post by peer2pay »

Eufrat wrote: post #2

Are these AI-driven data centers actually getting built? I was reading about Kevin O’Leary’s initial proposal for his Utah data center and it’s just preposterous, it’s inconceivable anyone needs that much compute at any realistic demand level. The ask is so massively large that even the scaled down version is just absurd. We also have the Stargate UK data center that the Starmer government trumpeted before it was exp…

I’m not too deep into the matter but don’t they all have to wait in the interconnection queue first anyway? My understanding is that that alone will take some years

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#18

Post by bpodgursky »

hack1312 wrote: post #14
wahern wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more misleading than that. The power line that "may" "primarily"[1] serve a private data center has started construction "after nearly 20 years of planning, permitting and lawsuits"[2]. Per usual, NIMBYs continually move the goal posts and rely heavily on rhetoric to oppose a project. Data center opposition is providing them with great PR fodder, but they would have opposed these projects regardless. This is why…

When it’s your house and land being stolen we’ll see how you feel

Are you under the impression people are not compensated by eminent domain?

In fact, a huge portion of the sentimental press stores over eminent domain are attempts by homeowners not to cancel the project, but to increase the payouts. Often the homeowners would be quite sad to see the project cancelled, they just want to milk the settlement via litigation.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#19

Post by Animats »

This could work out. We need, for example, ultra-high-voltage DC lines from the US wind belt to areas with real loads. The US wind belt is roughly from the Texas panhandle north to Canada. Plenty of wind, no big power users. But nobody has been able to build lines west to California or east to Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan, where the loads are. This is held up by land acquisition, not technology.

China has something of the same problem. The cheap power sources are in the northwest, and the big loads are in the southeast. So China has long million-volt UHV DC lines.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#20

Post by bpodgursky »

peer2pay wrote: post #17
Eufrat wrote: post #2

Are these AI-driven data centers actually getting built? I was reading about Kevin O’Leary’s initial proposal for his Utah data center and it’s just preposterous, it’s inconceivable anyone needs that much compute at any realistic demand level. The ask is so massively large that even the scaled down version is just absurd. We also have the Stargate UK data center that the Starmer government trumpeted before it was exp…

I’m not too deep into the matter but don’t they all have to wait in the interconnection queue first anyway? My understanding is that that alone will take some years

Most serious projects are building onsite power generation using natural gas to avoid this.
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