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The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

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Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#41

Post by matheusmoreira »

ronsor wrote: post #19
at1as wrote: post #11

Moving in the right direction, but unfortunately it's still quite a few years before H264 is off patent, globally: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M... At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility

> At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility Just as the patent system intended: maximum extraction was enabled while the product was useful.

Intellectual property is total bullshit as a concept but I suppose patents are at least tolerable since they only last 10 to 20 years, unlike copyright which lasts for our lifetimes plus a million billion years.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#42

Post by ronsor »

Teever wrote: post #40
ronsor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility Just as the patent system intended: maximum extraction was enabled while the product was useful.

[the United States Congress shall have power] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Clause The purpose of the system as it was originally conceived was not to provide maximum economic extraction -- the purpose was to promote the progress of scie…

I am familiar with the Copyright Clause. You need to remind the courts, Congress, and rights holders, not me. If I had my way, rent seeking would be dead.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#43

Post by ksec »

duskwuff wrote: post #32
jchw wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope so! Otherwise the Pareto front wouldn't have moved in ~20 years which would be rather hard to believe. However, at the same time, h265, h266 and AV1 are all vastly more complicated, and will have less broad hardware acceleration support than h264, which, again, even if it is not optimally efficient use of compute, just doesn't require a whole lot by modern standards. So I'd argue there is really no reaso…

Once the patents expire, I expect to see H.264 become the JPEG of video codecs - it may not be the most efficient format available, but it's widely supported, relatively easy to encode/decode, and good enough quality for many use cases. (MP3 is in a similar place. AAC and Opus are technically superior, but everything supports MP3.)

>(MP3 is in a similar place. AAC and Opus are technically superior, but everything supports MP3.)

Actually MP3 is more like the H.263 / Divx here. AAC-LC is more like H.264. The difference in support of AAC-LC and MP3 is near zero, both in terms of hardware and software. While AAC-LC is vastly more superior. AAC-LC has been declared patent free ( all patent expired ) by Redhat for 9 years already.

The only part that is not perfect is there isn't a decent open source AAC-LC encoder. While you could use QAAC using Apple's encoder in iTunes. It would still have been better if there was an open source version. Luckily we just have a new AAC encoder with FFmpeg, it is doing great for and although sill not Apple's quality. But hopefully improve in the future.

Or Apple could have just open source the god damn thing.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#44

Post by dabinat »

userbinator wrote: post #27
at1as wrote: post #11

Moving in the right direction, but unfortunately it's still quite a few years before H264 is off patent, globally: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M... At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility

I don't think video resolution will increase all that much in the future, except for niche uses, as the resolution of the human eye becomes a limiting factor.

For distribution perhaps, but for acquisition it makes sense to have the highest resolution possible.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#45

Post by ksec »

aboardRat4 wrote: post #37

When MPEG-5?

There is. MPEG-5 EVC Basic Profile that is Patent unencumbered, with only dozens patents that is soon to be expired, and EVC High Profile that competes with VVC in terms of quality.

There is also LCEVC ( Not connected with EVC ) that is a scaling layer on top of existing video codec. You can apply LCEVC on top of EVC, VVC, HEVC or AVC as well as AV1 and AV2. LCEVC has been selected by Brail as part of their TV 3.0 technology stack on top VVC.

While there are momentum on LCEVC, I actually wished EVC gained more momentum. I guess everything is too late now.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#46

Post by avazhi »

Teever wrote: post #40
ronsor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility Just as the patent system intended: maximum extraction was enabled while the product was useful.

[the United States Congress shall have power] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Clause The purpose of the system as it was originally conceived was not to provide maximum economic extraction -- the purpose was to promote the progress of scie…

Interesting how you’ve chosen to interpret that section.

When I was in law school we were taught what seemed obvious then and is obvious now: that Congress has the power to promote the progress of science and useful arts by giving authors and inventors exclusive right to the economic fruits of their works. You can argue about flaws in the system but it’s pretty laughable to suggest that copyrights and patents don’t exist for the purposes of maximum economic value extraction for inventors and authors.

There is quite literally no other reason for granting a copyright or patent. It’s also why if a plaintiff is successful in a claim for an infringement of either, he’ll get awarded money in the United States that at a bare minimum is designed to compensate him for the money he would have made if the patent or copyright had been complied with. Europe has some different ideas about moral rights in this space, but since you’re quoting US material I assume you aren’t referring to our funny brothers across the pond.

It’s obvious to most people that humans act in certain ways due to incentives, and we like to incentivise invention and creativity in the West.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#47

Post by pdntspa »

at1as wrote: post #11

Moving in the right direction, but unfortunately it's still quite a few years before H264 is off patent, globally: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M... At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility

Hey now, MP3 is still relevant even though better codecs have come (and gone)

Something tells me H264 is going to be sticking around for a while just on sheer compatibility and compute requirements

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#48

Post by ColdStream »

pdntspa wrote: post #47
at1as wrote: post #11

Moving in the right direction, but unfortunately it's still quite a few years before H264 is off patent, globally: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M... At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility

Hey now, MP3 is still relevant even though better codecs have come (and gone) Something tells me H264 is going to be sticking around for a while just on sheer compatibility and compute requirements

Very likely, look at JPEG. It was released in 1992 and it is still wildly popular on line.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#49

Post by ColdStream »

userbinator wrote: post #27
at1as wrote: post #11

Moving in the right direction, but unfortunately it's still quite a few years before H264 is off patent, globally: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M... At which point, the continued march towards higher resolution and bandwidth video will probably limit their utility

I don't think video resolution will increase all that much in the future, except for niche uses, as the resolution of the human eye becomes a limiting factor.

Pretty much. 1080p it very good, 4K is near perfect to me. By the time you can see the pixels you are WAY too close to the screen.

Re: The Last MPEG-4 Visual Patent Has Expired

#50

Post by winstonwinston »

drmpeg wrote: post #31
userbinator wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just that I think the h264 long tail will be one of the longest long tails of a video codec. I think MPEG-1 and 2 (from which MP3 comes) might be even longer.

MPEG-2 video is still very much alive. In the US, almost all terrestrial OTA broadcast (ATSC 1.0) and all SD channels on cable systems. Even Comcast VOD was all MPEG-2 (including HD) until they shut down the QAM version in 2023.

In Europe too, for Sd via DVB-C/T2. It is however non-existent for OTT.
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