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Qwen 3.8

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Re: Qwen 3.8

#421

Post by tehjoker »

edm0nd wrote: post #353
TheDong wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there could also be a simpler explanation. Why does a debian contributor make debian free, why do they work on this thing anyone can use? Is it because linux and debian hate windows and iOS and want to see american fail? No, it's because most debian contributors believe software source code, information, should be free, users should be free to modify the code they use, and that they're building a thing th…

Yeah the Chinese totally have a really good history with being completely open and giving lol. The Chinese government totally has not been hacking into American and Western fortune 500 companies for the past few decades stealing R&D and tech to use for themselves. The Chinese also totally do not steal hundreds of billions of dollars of IP from America annually. Totally not something they would do!

Whether or not this is really true or just US propaganda, the majority of technology transfer has occurred through the open process of requiring US companies to form partnerships and disclose know-how to access the chinese market. This stuff about espionage is really sour grapes from losers.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#422

Post by mullingitover »

freehorse wrote: post #388
edm0nd wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the Chinese totally have a really good history with being completely open and giving lol. The Chinese government totally has not been hacking into American and Western fortune 500 companies for the past few decades stealing R&D and tech to use for themselves. The Chinese also totally do not steal hundreds of billions of dollars of IP from America annually. Totally not something they would do!

Industrial espionage is neither a chinese invention nor (specifically) chinese practice. American companies do it to each other even.

The U.S. was openly a pirate nation for most of the 1800s.

Like with the ICC, the US respects or doesn’t respect international law strictly when it’s beneficial to the state’s interests. China really can’t be held to a different standard. This activity is grade school level geopolitics: the global system of government is anarchy.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#423

Post by 5701652400 »

k__ wrote: post #294
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you tell me more about deepseek? I paid $2 for deepseek api, put the key in void editor and made a crypto tool in html. It turned out to be around 67kb. I used sample files in CSV that were a few hundred lines. It spent around $1.8 in the hour or two or light coding and follow up bugs. Is it really really this much? I can't imagine spending a month using it for a day job, it would cost more than the salary so wha…

My 2 weeks with DeepSeek V4: Pro is ~50% more expensive than Flash. Both need babysitting. Plan, split in small tasks, give it docs, types, tests, linter, best practice examples, etc. Always start a new session when starting a task. Do regular manual sanity checks, and tell it to find issues in the codebase. I pay like $1,50 per day for Pro.

very simlar experience.

I would also add that I run it this way ~12hour a day non-stop. 300M / tokens per day (99.7% cache hit).

Re: Qwen 3.8

#424

Post by mchusma »

I counted the other day and there were at least 12 different providers with "better than Opus 4.5 performance" on Artificial Analysis, Opus 4.5 being Anthropic's December release that many say kicked off the latest acceleration. Which is totally insane competition, particularly given how low switching costs. I personally think that Opus 4.5 level performance is sufficient for most apps and usecases, as they get deployed.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#425

Post by SoftTalker »

Matl wrote: post #22
gardnr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to say what their motivation is. The Chinese firms seem to be working hard to commoditize intelligence which may be the most effective way to debase American frontier labs. And yeah: it also happens to be really good for humanity.

> It's hard to say what their motivation is. Not that hard to say IMO, they basically see models becoming a commodity and see value in the applications on top of them. So if Alibaba Cloud is the best place to build applications on top of Qwen, why not give the model itself away?

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/

Re: Qwen 3.8

#426

Post by kingstnap »

ferrouswheel wrote: post #45
comandillos wrote: post #7

Just imagine Anthropic making Opus open-weights now for the sake of trolling everyone. Wouldn't surprise me at this point xD

Has Anthropic released anything at all, ever?

Anthropic has a lot of interpretability work, but they are extremely defensive about everything else. Dario doesn't really believe in releasing anything. Despite how he acts in terms of some sort of highly principle driven saviour (machines of loving grace) he clearly is more business minded then anything else.

For example they don't even tell you anything about the tokenization. They even do random chunking and padding to avoid leaking the token strings in the streaming api after it got reverse engineered. (See: https://spylab.ai/blog/claude-tokenizer/)

Re: Qwen 3.8

#427

Post by dudefeliciano »

asdewqqwer wrote: post #410
edm0nd wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the Chinese totally have a really good history with being completely open and giving lol. The Chinese government totally has not been hacking into American and Western fortune 500 companies for the past few decades stealing R&D and tech to use for themselves. The Chinese also totally do not steal hundreds of billions of dollars of IP from America annually. Totally not something they would do!

It is hilarious to see people from arguable the most polarized political systems in the world believing the evil 1.5 billion people across the sea share one single mind, either a saint, or a devil.

[flagged]

Re: Qwen 3.8

#428

Post by mikhailt »

elmer2 wrote: post #389
vrganj wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US leadership (both government and industry) really seems set on making everyone go with the Chinese competition at this point.

Really? I use claude regularly, and the Chinese models are far behind and feel like a cheap copy. It's Linux on the desktop all over again. Next year will be its time.

A lot of folks are finding GLM 5.2, Kimi 3, and Deepseek just fine for their use cases.

It does not have to beat US firms, it just needs to be cheaper.

I use Deepseek v4 flash for a lot of reviewing and summarizing tasks, only used 4$ in the last two months. No dramatic drop in performance against other US models, it works for my use case. I do use GPT 5.6 Sol for other things but tried GLM 5.2 and it was good enough.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#429

Post by yowlingcat »

adrian_b wrote: post #4

I assume that this announcement has been prompted by that of Moonshot AI, which has just announced a 2.8T parameter open-weights LLM, Kimi K3, to be published on Huggingface by 27 July. Now the response of Alibaba is that they will also publish soon a big open weights LLM, the 2.4T parameter Qwen 3.8. I wonder if Alibaba has always planned to make this big LLM open weights, or they have chosen to do this now, to bett…

Dont forget the following:

- Minimax M3 Pro (2.7T)

- GLM 5.3 (or beyond)

- Deepseek V4 Pro (current V4 Pro is preview)

- Kimi K3 weights out in 8 days

Exciting time on the open-weights frontier.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#430

Post by margorczynski »

mchusma wrote: post #424

I counted the other day and there were at least 12 different providers with "better than Opus 4.5 performance" on Artificial Analysis, Opus 4.5 being Anthropic's December release that many say kicked off the latest acceleration. Which is totally insane competition, particularly given how low switching costs. I personally think that Opus 4.5 level performance is sufficient for most apps and usecases, as they get deplo…

> Which is totally insane competition, particularly given how low switching costs

Which is why OAI and Anthropic will most probably push for more governmental control and bans. Without it their whole income model is cooked.

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