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Qwen 3.8

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Re: Qwen 3.8

#261
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is a bit cliche but I wonder how much headroom there is in the lower parameter count range. Is there any good reason to believe there is a lot of headroom or there is not? I suppose I'm just wondering if this wave of nearly Fable class models will be runnable on ~$10k worth of hardware at reasonable speeds in the near future.

I don’t think you’ll get full Fable performance at that level, at least for a while, but I’ve been watching some of the 1-bit models (e.g. Bonsai) with interest. Perhaps we can drive parameter count up on local models while still keeping memory consumption reasonable for consumer hardware. So, for instance, running models with 1T parameters in 128 GB systems.

I think you're right with the current LLM/transformer architecture. There are several factors that affect model size:

- The number of token values supported by the model ("n_vocab").

- The number of parameters/features that are used to represent each token ("d_model").

- The number of attention layers there are ("n_layers").

such that the number of parameters is approximately:

   p ~= 12 * n_layers * d^2_model + n_vocab * d_model
Thus, the issue with the current architecture is that in order to scale the models (more token values, more attention blocks, more features, etc.) the model sizes increase exponentially. This is how you end up with billions or trillions of parameters.

It should be possible to keep the model size smaller by using better architectures, or making improvements to the existing model architecture.

For example, improving the token model by possibly using something similar to the image and audio data and getting the model to learn its own internal representation of the byte/character data instead of doing a tokenization pre-processing step. This way, instead of a separate model learning that several bytes/characters appear together, the transformer could learn things like language-specific prefices and suffices, character pairings (like in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean), and other syntactic morphology. It may also help with solving issues like "how many X characters are in the word/phrase Y". You could also experiment with using either 256 parameters (one per character in a byte) or using a single parameter per byte (that is 1/byte_value).

Re: Qwen 3.8

#262
Why did Qwen stop producing open models? They've gone from building the best open models ~1 year ago to producing like the 10th-best closed models. I don't understand this pivot at all.

Edit: I saw online they do in fact plan to release this openly at some point – x.com/Alibaba_Qwen/status/2078759124914098291

Re: Qwen 3.8

#263
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tbh even if its better model due to lot of restrictions its not that useful than opus.

100% this. There's currently this [1] submission that hasn't gained much attention, but is really important. In this [2] incident report from HuggingFace, they talk about detecting an attack and not being able to analyse the logs / IoC with API models because of guardrails. If not even highly regarded reputable companies can't sort out access to SotA models for blue team use, the raw capabilities don't matter. They'r…

Key part from [2]:

"When we started the log analysis, we first used frontier models behind commercial APIs. This did not work [...] We ran the forensic analysis instead on GLM 5.2, an open-weight model, on our own infrastructure. [...] The practical lesson for defenders: have a capable model you can run on your own infrastructure vetted and ready before an incident, both to avoid guardrail lockout [...]"

Re: Qwen 3.8

#264

in my experience of 1 month daily use, Qwen 3.7 Pro is just unusable. wastes too much time, goes off track, useless stuck loops, cannot debug at all. Deepseek V4 Pro is night-and-day compare to Qwen. actually Qwen models seems the worst SWE experience so far. and it is super expensive compare to Deepseek. cannot delegate anything to it, cannot use it real-time low-level tasks either. totally unusable.

> in my experience of 1 month daily use, Qwen 3.7 Pro is just unusable. wastes too much time, goes off track, useless stuck loops, cannot debug at all. Deepseek V4 Pro is night-and-day compare to Qwen. actually Qwen models seems the worst SWE experience so far.

I have used both Qwen3.6-35B and Qwen3.6-27B locally (both Q8 quantized with llama.cpp). I have also used antirez's quant of DS4-flash. They all performed within the same tier, DS4 being a bit more efficient, but they all gave really good results, mainly used for bash scripting, debugging, python and some C++. I am curious what type of applications/langauges failed with Qwen? One thing to note, the chat templates were "broken" for qwen models and had to debug it, there are already effort on this. Tbh, the same with gemma.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#265

Why did Qwen stop producing open models? They've gone from building the best open models ~1 year ago to producing like the 10th-best closed models. I don't understand this pivot at all. Edit: I saw online they do in fact plan to release this openly at some point – x.com/Alibaba_Qwen/status/2078759124914098291

It's not a pivot, giving away the weights was a marketing strategy that they don't need to keep up with.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#266

Why did Qwen stop producing open models? They've gone from building the best open models ~1 year ago to producing like the 10th-best closed models. I don't understand this pivot at all. Edit: I saw online they do in fact plan to release this openly at some point – x.com/Alibaba_Qwen/status/2078759124914098291

They've announced that they're releasing the weights for a 2.4T model soon:

https://xcancel.com/Alibaba_Qwen/status/2078759124914098291

Re: Qwen 3.8

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, do you find the 3.5 120B sized MoE works better than the dense 3.6 27B?

Yeah, Qwen3.5-122B-A10B-NVFP4 produces better responses than Qwen3.6-27B-NVFP4 (both from unsloth), but I'm mostly using them for programming in various ways, mostly Rust, Clojure, Python and JavaScript, and some translations tasks, but not much more than that, so YMMV. Edit: as a concrete example, I'm working on a "optimization framework via agent harness" right now, Qwen3.6-27B-NVFP4 is often unable to actually com…

> Yeah, Qwen3.5-122B-A10B-NVFP4 produces better responses than Qwen3.6-27B-NVFP4 (both from unsloth), but I'm mostly using them for programming in various ways, mostly Rust, Clojure, Python and JavaScript, and some translations tasks, but not much more than that, so YMMV. > > Edit: as a concrete example, I'm working on a "optimization framework via agent harness" right now, Qwen3.6-27B-NVFP4 is often unable to actually complete the optimization within 100 turns, while Qwen3.5-122B-A10B-NVFP4 has no issues finishing within ~50 turns or so.

But why are you using Qwen3.6-27B-NVFP4 compared to the FP8 or full version? In my experience the Q8 of 27B is on par sometimes better than 122B. I am experiemnting witb higher quants for 122B to fit on my Strix Halo, but still, the difference honestly for my workflow is not that much. I just wish they released 3.6-122B version.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#268

Why did Qwen stop producing open models? They've gone from building the best open models ~1 year ago to producing like the 10th-best closed models. I don't understand this pivot at all. Edit: I saw online they do in fact plan to release this openly at some point – x.com/Alibaba_Qwen/status/2078759124914098291

They've announced that they're releasing the weights for a 2.4T model soon: https://xcancel.com/Alibaba_Qwen/status/2078759124914098291

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48966120

Re: Qwen 3.8

#269
post #78
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to say what their motivation is. The Chinese firms seem to be working hard to commoditize intelligence which may be the most effective way to debase American frontier labs. And yeah: it also happens to be really good for humanity.

There’s a Twitter thread making rounds by Dean Ball about deceleration in AI development caused by open models and I can’t understand how people don’t see that it’s true: open models dismantle the frontier lab capex spend potential by reducing the training budget to zero in the limit. Tokens from different providers are not fungible, but customers are nevertheless very price sensitive and close enough is good enough,…

> There’s a Twitter thread making rounds by Dean Ball about deceleration in AI development caused by open models and I can’t understand how people don’t see that it’s true: open models dismantle the frontier lab capex spend potential by reducing the training budget to zero in the limit.

If you're worried about an AGI arms race between the U.S. and China putting AI Safety at risk, then the fact that inherently less knowledgeable/capable models (fewer and more coarsely quantized total parameters than their proprietary competitors according to commonplace rumors) are having a "decelerationist" effect is actually great news. Even better if China is actually "Yann LeCun-pilled" (verbatim from Ball's post) and doesn't really believe in early AGI. So explain to us exactly why we're supposed to ban/discourage use of these open source models? The only way that makes sense is as a transparently self-serving proposal from the chief OpenAI policy lobbyist.

Re: Qwen 3.8

#270
post #4

I assume that this announcement has been prompted by that of Moonshot AI, which has just announced a 2.8T parameter open-weights LLM, Kimi K3, to be published on Huggingface by 27 July. Now the response of Alibaba is that they will also publish soon a big open weights LLM, the 2.4T parameter Qwen 3.8. I wonder if Alibaba has always planned to make this big LLM open weights, or they have chosen to do this now, to bett…

> In any case, from this competition in LLMs, we win.

Do we really though? Everyone is wasting resources doing almost exactly the same thing. Climate loses, we lose.

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