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The Kimi K3 Moment

stephen.bochinski.dev

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Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#461

Post by Diogenesian »

petilon wrote: post #24

The current administration's immigration policy isn't helping. This wouldn't have happened 10 years ago because the US was this city on the hill that everyone wanted to immigrate to. Talented Asian researchers would have immigrated to the US and China would be deprived of talent.

Yang Zhilin, founder of Moonshot AI, got his PhD at Carnegie Mellon and turned down US job offers to go found a startup back home in China. That was obviously a good decision, and immigration policy wouldn't have made a difference.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#462

Post by tristanj »

vanviegen wrote: post #421
tristanj wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'most extensive industrial espionage campaign, probably ever' is absolute nonsense You are completely underestimating the scale of what is happening here. Chinese AI labs are actively facilitating an industrial-scale network of tens of thousands of bot accounts, that resell Claude tokens at 97% below official API prices. They buy subsidized Max 5x plans (sometimes with stolen credit cards), then split the subscript…

Does anything about that strike you as particularly unfair, given the moral compass defined by Big AI?

The situation strikes me as morally ambiguous. The resellers are:

1) selling Anthropic's products at a 95% discount and redirecting Anthropic's own customers to themselves. A customer is far less inclined to buy directly from Anthropic when a reseller is offering an identical product for 10x less. This situation is highly similar to internet piracy.

2) keeping the token logs from Anthropic's products and selling them to competitors, so those competitors can build their own equivalent models. The resellers get paid per token log they deliver. This situation is highly similar to espionage.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#463

Post by HSO »

montroser wrote: post #13

This was always where this was heading, but we got here much faster than expected. Once western governments declare it to be a "national security" risk for citizens to have access to open-weight frontier models, and once they classify using these models as acts of terrorism, what will that world be like? Will using Kimi K3 come to be like how napster was in the olden days? Everybody knew it was technically illegal, b…

this doesnt even capture it.

cars are a final product. beyond a basic threshold they dont influence other products, their quality or cost structure.

this is different.

all software, and everything that depends on software, will be enshittified into trabis and ladas once the idiot west starts "building the wall".

as a developer, techie or just a modern person, the only response to this is to get out while you still can, like east germans in 1950s.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#464

Post by pmontra »

gladimdim wrote: post #389
rayiner wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The desire to accuse China of just copying is like 20 years out of date. It’s been wrong since some people on HN were in diapers. People are going to be gobsmacked when, in our lifetime, China becomes a world power comparable to the U.S. Probably still poorer per capita, but at Spain/Italy levels, not third world country levels. And they’ll be shocked at the implications of that on the world economy, migration patter…

I am still shocked Spain/Italy and USA are considered 'first world' countries. We are not in 70s or even 90s anymore. I've been to China in 2011 also thinking I am visiting some huge village but...that was the most futuristic trip I ever had. I was surprised by the penetration level of the mobile devices - everything had a QR code, you could buy/sell/send money, pay services all with a single tap on a phone.

I've been in China in 2015 and like anywhere else in the world it was very mixed: some urban areas like central NY or central Madrid and Milan (or much shinier) and some rural areas like 200 year ago, but inevitably with electronics.

Basically in every country of the world you can travel one hour from big cities and get in a place deep in the fields or the woods with very different needs and dynamics from the city. They could be different countries and maybe both cities and countryside will be better off if we could have fractally composed states with different laws and regulations.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#466

Post by gpm »

socialcommenter wrote: post #408
gpm wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would have been a problem but it turns out that Anthropic is actually valued multiple orders of magnitude more than a copy of all the books in the world. So they survived the significant legal consequences.

In a just world, the punishment can be more than just the sum of the direct damages, otherwise there's no incentive to stop reoffending. Anthropic (and friends) proved they're willing to do obviously illegal things, and it didn't end them. Why do we think they stopped after doing it once?

In this world too, the punishment was, ballpark, 100x direct damages.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#467

Post by kajaktum »

pmontra wrote: post #464
gladimdim wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am still shocked Spain/Italy and USA are considered 'first world' countries. We are not in 70s or even 90s anymore. I've been to China in 2011 also thinking I am visiting some huge village but...that was the most futuristic trip I ever had. I was surprised by the penetration level of the mobile devices - everything had a QR code, you could buy/sell/send money, pay services all with a single tap on a phone.

I've been in China in 2015 and like anywhere else in the world it was very mixed: some urban areas like central NY or central Madrid and Milan (or much shinier) and some rural areas like 200 year ago, but inevitably with electronics. Basically in every country of the world you can travel one hour from big cities and get in a place deep in the fields or the woods with very different needs and dynamics from the city. T…

I don’t know any cities in Americas that is comparable to Shanghai or even Japan in term of transportation or convenient

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#468

Post by Jtarii »

milkshakes wrote: post #133
Jtarii wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was more thinking they would be funding US labs.

the question was: what is the endgame for the stated "second class labs" strategy of distilling their frontier competitors then undercutting them on price?

They will make a bunch of money then maybe go out of business eventually when the economics shift? Do they need an endgame?

Some people are just happy to follow the money.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#469

Post by joe_mamba »

andriy_koval wrote: post #288
joe_mamba wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're still in the early days of the AI industry timeline(relative to traditional industries). Not everything has yet been litigated. Taxes on AI subscriptions or AI capable hardware, to financially compensate IP holders for (potential) IP theft, could very well arrive in the near future, once the industry is mature. If this shocks you and sounds preposterous, I'll remind you that in several EU countries, we still pa…

I think we are going to direction where AI corps will have stronger lobby compared to IP holders.

[dead]

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#470

Post by stymaar »

dotancohen wrote: post #402
stymaar wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kimi K3 reproducibly identifies itself as Claude It could also be have been trained from collected response datasets. Claude got caught several time responding it was ChatGPT or even Deepseek and I don't think Anthropic has been distealling DeepSeek. > This behavior is exactly what you'd expect from a model distilled from Claude. The opposite actually. If they wanted to distill Claude without getting caught they co…

> distealling Apt typo. Though I am of the opinion that distilling is no different than how extant frontier LLMs have also been trained on other people's data, I could actually see the word distealling becoming useful in discussion.

Its not a typo, someone coined that during the DeepSeek R1 hype period and I kept using it since then.

I totally agree with you on the fact that it's not morally any different than pre-training. IMHO we should have a legislation that force base models to be released publicly without any restrictions whatsoever as it's basically the product of the whole humanity's intelligence.

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