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The Kimi K3 Moment

stephen.bochinski.dev

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Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#361

Post by deminature »

tristanj wrote: post #360
deminature wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not reproducibly identify itself as Claude, there's evidence to the contrary in the very thread you linked: https://x.com/bobbyNewcomb5/status/2078151562828947954

As mentioned in my comment, Kimi K3 identifies itself as Claude ~15% of the time. Here's another report of K3 identifying itself as Claude https://x.com/Sauers_/status/2077842686459981901 And an analysis showing the self-identity distribution for K3 and other models https://x.com/RyanGreenblatt/status/2078663148509544589

Your main source is Ryan Greenblatt who is a regular recipient of community notes and has no corroboration for the 15% statistic other than his assertion. The other tweet (Sauers_) is also community noted as engagement farming with a false system prompt, so forgive me for being skeptical.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#362

Post by jackb4040 »

yshvrdhn wrote: post #331

I have a feeling there is some elite data labeling operation going on in china for these labs at a subsidized rate somehow.

Maybe, but I don't think that's necessarily a problem. "Subsidized" is a loaded word on HN because it often refers to the unsustainable consumer pricing of U.S. AI labs that will inevitably lead to market corrections. A subsidy by the Chinese state to avoid strategic encirclement isn't necessarily unsustainable nor irrational.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#363

Post by jackb4040 »

tshaddox wrote: post #77
qalmakka wrote: post #54

I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was. Get them widespread through cheap pricing and then jacking it up? Being the only ones that had a viable product so to get the ability to extract as much value as you want from AI? I don't understand how a product that: - is interfaced with and is deeply linked to natural language, so everything you produce (sessions, history, etc) is in Markdo…

> I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was. A closely related question is “what do the American labs need to do in order to justify their enormous market valuations?” It seems like the answer cannot possibly be “gradually improve model capability while figuring out how to better monetize inference.” The valuations are just way too high for that to be sufficient. Surely the answer has…

A lot of people still think AGI is going to happen, yes. Not the ones who actually build the thing, but the marketers above them and their eager victims in the political and business-owning classes.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#364

Post by andriy_koval »

no-name-here wrote: post #356
andriy_koval wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of lawsuites which resulted in banning Chinese companies from doing business in US, those lawsuits totally have consequences.

What are the most high-profile examples of the "tons" of lawsuits resulting in Chinese companies being banned from doing business in the U.S.? Isn’t it usually more action by the government - executive orders, etc?

Here is example: https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-trends/article/3258239/chines...

I believe mechanics is following: US corp sues Chinese, asks for preliminary injunction to stop selling product for example if there is strong evidence some IP for example was stolen etc. Then they litigate, and settle somehow.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#365

Post by tristanj »

deminature wrote: post #361
tristanj wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned in my comment, Kimi K3 identifies itself as Claude ~15% of the time. Here's another report of K3 identifying itself as Claude https://x.com/Sauers_/status/2077842686459981901 And an analysis showing the self-identity distribution for K3 and other models https://x.com/RyanGreenblatt/status/2078663148509544589

Your main source is Ryan Greenblatt who is a regular recipient of community notes and has no corroboration for the 15% statistic other than his assertion. The other tweet (Sauers_) is also community noted as engagement farming with a false system prompt, so forgive me for being skeptical.

Including the three sources above, multiple others have reported that K3 self-identifies as Claude.

"I'm actually Claude - not Kimi". https://x.com/PimDeWitte/status/2077884701470040083

I regret to inform you that it is, in fact, real and from their own website - you don’t even need to try hard to reproduce it. https://x.com/PimDeWitte/status/2078105292965912690

lmao this is so funny, if you ask Kimi K3 for something with an empty system prompt it will consistently think of itself as Claude https://x.com/__alula/status/2078359305741275445

"I genuinely believe I'm Claude based on everything in my training" https://x.com/williawa/status/2077869021589033002

another "I'm actually Claude - not Kimi", including the system prompt https://x.com/jchudnov/status/2078661564803207406/photo/1

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#366

Post by no-name-here »

andriy_koval wrote: post #364
no-name-here wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the most high-profile examples of the "tons" of lawsuits resulting in Chinese companies being banned from doing business in the U.S.? Isn’t it usually more action by the government - executive orders, etc?

Here is example: https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-trends/article/3258239/chines... I believe mechanics is following: US corp sues Chinese, asks for preliminary injunction to stop selling product for example if there is strong evidence some IP for example was stolen etc. Then they litigate, and settle somehow.

That 2024 article says "US sanctions" in the first sentence, but it's paywalled, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hytera#United_States first mentions a 2019 US law that first partially banned them, with the US government subsequently expanding it to a general US ban. After the initial ban it appears Hytera was involved in a suit with Motorola and got a worldwide(!?) ban as a result of it in 2024, but the ban was lifted on appeal after 2 weeks (just after the SCMP article). So it appears Hytera was first banned by US law, then got a 2-week worldwide ban from a US suit. (I'm just relying on the linked sources and have no personal knowledge of all of this.)

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#367

Post by kamranjon »

tristanj wrote: post #358
kamranjon wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By evidence I mean logs, I mean IP addresses, I mean timestamps. They claim millions of requests, let’s see literally any of them? I don’t consider a tweet by Denise Wu, who works at Anthropic, to be reproducible evidence. I don’t consider “Caveat: fully AI-generated research.” To be someone taking time to analyze anything in great detail. Because two AI models produce vaguely similar front-end styles when generating…

You've backtracked significantly here. "Zero evidence" as you claimed earlier isn't accurate. You've moved the goalposts from "evidence" to "raw internal logs I can independently audit," which is a different and very high standard. Sure Anthropic didn't publish logs, IP addresses, timestamps, or account IDs of the accounts involved. But that's true of any cybersecurity breach/abuse disclosure ever made. Companies are…

I wouldn’t say I’ve backtracked- I think I’ve been incredibly consistent here. Chinese labs are releasing open weight models, research and analysis. Anthropic is not. They haven’t produced any actual evidence of distillation themselves and what they have presented is tenuous at best.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#368

Post by andriy_koval »

no-name-here wrote: post #366
andriy_koval wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is example: https://www.scmp.com/tech/tech-trends/article/3258239/chines... I believe mechanics is following: US corp sues Chinese, asks for preliminary injunction to stop selling product for example if there is strong evidence some IP for example was stolen etc. Then they litigate, and settle somehow.

That 2024 article says "US sanctions" in the first sentence, but it's paywalled, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hytera#United_States first mentions a 2019 US law that first partially banned them, with the US government subsequently expanding it to a general US ban. After the initial ban it appears Hytera was involved in a suit with Motorola and got a worldwide(!?) ban as a result of it in 2024, but the ban was lif…

Sure, there is litigation, criminal case, appeals, fines ($500M: https://www.motorolasolutions.com/newsroom/press-releases/hy...). The point is if violation is clear, US corps have a chance to go after Chinese corps.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#369

Post by remexre »

tristanj wrote: post #365
deminature wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your main source is Ryan Greenblatt who is a regular recipient of community notes and has no corroboration for the 15% statistic other than his assertion. The other tweet (Sauers_) is also community noted as engagement farming with a false system prompt, so forgive me for being skeptical.

Including the three sources above, multiple others have reported that K3 self-identifies as Claude. "I'm actually Claude - not Kimi". https://x.com/PimDeWitte/status/2077884701470040083 I regret to inform you that it is, in fact, real and from their own website - you don’t even need to try hard to reproduce it. https://x.com/PimDeWitte/status/2078105292965912690 lmao this is so funny, if you ask Kimi K3 for something…

my first prompt to any Kimi model was K3 via Pi, some version of "hi kimi!!" and the response was telling me "I'm actually Claude."

this is not hard to repro, just use a system prompt that doesn't mention the model name.

that said, if they bootstrapped with opus 4.6 convo sft data they had sitting around... so what?

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#370

Post by no-name-here »

andriy_koval wrote: post #368
no-name-here wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 2024 article says "US sanctions" in the first sentence, but it's paywalled, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hytera#United_States first mentions a 2019 US law that first partially banned them, with the US government subsequently expanding it to a general US ban. After the initial ban it appears Hytera was involved in a suit with Motorola and got a worldwide(!?) ban as a result of it in 2024, but the ban was lif…

Sure, there is litigation, criminal case, appeals, fines ($500M: https://www.motorolasolutions.com/newsroom/press-releases/hy... ). The point is if violation is clear, US corps have a chance to go after Chinese corps.

>> There are tons of lawsuites which resulted in banning Chinese companies from doing business in US

> What are the most high-profile examples of the "tons" of lawsuits resulting in Chinese companies being banned from doing business in the U.S.? Isn’t it usually more action by the government - executive orders, etc?

In response to "What are the most high-profile examples of lawsuits resulting in Chinese companies being banned from doing business in the U.S.", the one example given was from 2 years ago of a ban that lasted for 2 weeks (separate from its 2019 onward government bans)?

However, if the claim is that companies (including Chinese) can face significant fines from IP lawsuits, I agree.

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