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No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

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Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#31

Post by kube-system »

ourmandave wrote: post #26
dofm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it need to? There is no medical controversy. There’s only a weak and now discounted statistical association that was seized upon by two disgraceful anti-science politicians to create a political controversy.

I can't figure it out. What is the actual reason they knowingly LIED about it? Some personal grievance against Tylenol brand? More graft from a competitor? Appease their conspiracy loving dumbass base? Destroy the scientific reputation of the US? Trump is actually that fucking stupid? All of the above?

I don’t think they’re lying. They probably honestly think they are correct.

They actively reject the values of intellectualism, critical thinking, and expert consensus. They instead embrace empiricism, loyalty, and the great man theory.

It’s a recipe for severe Dunning-Kruger.

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#32

Post by eth0up »

mmooss wrote: post #13
greggsy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liver toxicity is well known, and overdose is not uncommon.

> overdose is not uncommon Anecdotally, I hear about it far more in Internet comments like the parent than elsewhere. How common is it?

Poison center stats, annual, acetaminophen...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

Emergency department visits ~56,000

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/

Hospitalizations ~26,000

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/

Deaths ~500 deaths/year

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/

Also, direct from FDA, for those promoting its use with alcohol: "Be aware that severe liver damage may occur if you have three or more alcoholic drinks per day while using acetaminophen." One can infer that stressing the liver prior, then again with tylenol, might be unwise. But by all means, headaches suck. I understand.

Also:

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/health-professionals-communities/c...

But do not worry. The FDA only specifies that to qualify as risk, requires 'daily' intake of 'three or more drinks'. That is 'daily'. Therefore, it is, if you manage to survive binge drinking several cases of beer and your drinking pattern is null for day1-6, but n amount on day7, perfectly safe to take acetaminophen at will. The documentation does not refute this, therefore it is safe. Only daily drinks, three or more. Binge ok. Only official documentation good true. Inference bad false.

I stand corrected by ctoa!

And to the noble clinical researcher in the house (estearum), I much respec your authorituh. No corruption or monetary influence has ever affected the medical or research field. This I do not dispute. As a chartered researcher, you are an impervious and pure and good person. And honest too. Pharmaceutical industry applies here as well; beyond reproach -- if you're in, you're pure. The notion that they have financial incentives is schizophrenic and despicably paranoid. Anyone who thinks otherwise can have a $200 epipen stuffed in their eye, for free.

I also humbly rescind all my own experience and research. A single I "don't know much" sense from an illustrious professional medical champion was the evidence I needed to retire. Farewell and I shall never think nor speak again. All that cherry pickin really wore me out ;(

And for all:

ScienceDirect S0163834323001317 - A 2023 piece ("Association of regular use of ibuprofen and paracetamol, genetic susceptibility, and new-onset dementia in the older population") that found regular paracetamol use, but not ibuprofen, associated with higher risk of new-onset all-cause dementia, AD, and vascular dementia, independent of genetic risk. But ignore that. Acetaminophen is uncontested by good people. This = bad people https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01638...

*Mess due to comment throttling.

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#33

Post by eth0up »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #14
eth0up wrote: post #3

Just for the sake of honest balance, with minimal commentary and no opinions: Acetaminophen and dementia correlation: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2877629/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01638... Note that it's also hard on the liver. A lot fatalities due to taking after hangovers, etc: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322813 So if you insist, maybe take some NAC. But appa…

This article is about "how early a child is born or a child’s weight at birth". I don't know why we're talking about other possible negatives of Acetaminophen. Seems off-topic to me.

So a guy who beckons to "Keep HN weird." and has a history of non-strict adherence to subject titles with his/her own comments implies I must not challenge a title that claims "no adverse birth outcomes" from acetaminophen with closely related acetaminophen concerns and possible counter data? And that is some kind of special, golden? double standard?

But truly, if I am the only rascal here on HN, deviating slightly from the subject title, I will gather the tinder. Let's burn me with haste!

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#34

Post by warshinder »

eth0up wrote: post #32
mmooss wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overdose is not uncommon Anecdotally, I hear about it far more in Internet comments like the parent than elsewhere. How common is it?

Poison center stats, annual, acetaminophen... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Emergency department visits ~56,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Hospitalizations ~26,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Deaths ~500 deaths/year https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Also, direct from FDA, for those promoting its use with alcohol: "Be aware that severe liver damage…

Didn’t read your links but wonder how they deal with selection bias. People at increased risk for stroke or bleeding disorders, even if just self perceived risk, are told to favor acetaminophen because of the risk inherent in ibuprofen and naproxen sodium.

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#35

Post by mmooss »

eth0up wrote: post #32
mmooss wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overdose is not uncommon Anecdotally, I hear about it far more in Internet comments like the parent than elsewhere. How common is it?

Poison center stats, annual, acetaminophen... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Emergency department visits ~56,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Hospitalizations ~26,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Deaths ~500 deaths/year https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Also, direct from FDA, for those promoting its use with alcohol: "Be aware that severe liver damage…

The Pubmed articles are from 20 years ago. The 2023 JAMA article has some qualified information:

"In 2021, US poison centers received more than 80 000 cases involving an acetaminophen product.1 The National Electronic Injury Surveillance System estimated that 78 414 emergency department (ED) visits occurred annually in the US from January 1, 2006, through December 31, 2007, for overdoses of acetaminophen-containing products.2 In Canada, approximately 4500 hospitalizations occur each year because of acetaminophen overdose.3"

It doesn't tell us risk. Acetaminophen is very widely used, potentially the most widely used drug. I'm not sure what these numbers represent in terms of risk.

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#36

Post by sieabahlpark »

dofm wrote: post #22
anonymousiam wrote: post #17

This paper says there are no adverse effects to the mother, but it does not mention possible adverse effects to the child beyond "birth health" and does not address the recent controversy about a possible link to autism.

Why would it need to? There is no medical controversy. There’s only a weak and now discounted statistical association that was seized upon by two disgraceful anti-science politicians to create a political controversy.

[dead]

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#37

Post by gdulli »

erelong wrote: post #30

is this just lying with statistics? surely some abuse of the drug could lead to adverse reactions? are they just arguing for specific doses to not have negative effects? (that would be true of a lot of things we consider harmful)

How could you think that anyone would argue that arbitrary doses of any medication are safe? Drinking too much water will kill you.

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#38

Post by eth0up »

mmooss wrote: post #35
eth0up wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poison center stats, annual, acetaminophen... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Emergency department visits ~56,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Hospitalizations ~26,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Deaths ~500 deaths/year https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Also, direct from FDA, for those promoting its use with alcohol: "Be aware that severe liver damage…

The Pubmed articles are from 20 years ago. The 2023 JAMA article has some qualified information: "In 2021, US poison centers received more than 80 000 cases involving an acetaminophen product.1 The National Electronic Injury Surveillance System estimated that 78 414 emergency department (ED) visits occurred annually in the US from January 1, 2006, through December 31, 2007, for overdoses of acetaminophen-containing p…

With cost of healthcare, inflation, unemployment, housing crises, wars and whatever else folks have to be thrilled about these days, I am willing to risk assuming alcohol consumption is not going to be on a permanent downward trend. And pain management is far more challenging now than it was 20 years ago, many having no other option beyond NSAIDs for serious problems. That's not hard data, but it is me being quite confident that whatever the numbers were then, won't remain all time highs if they ever were or aspired to be.

Also, I do not work too hard around here, especially with all the corporate aligned types that patrol the area. Folks can do their own research, while they can, before history is rewritten by LLMs and the new internet. Yeah, a lot of articles and papers are getting more difficult to find. And institutional capture is well underway with AI. Newer generations think because they can't find something, it never existed. This is HN, with a karma economy and high price on honesty. I am just leaving occasional marks in the gray zones.

Re: No link between acetaminophen use during pregnancy and adverse birth outcomes

#39

Post by ctoa »

mmooss wrote: post #35
eth0up wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poison center stats, annual, acetaminophen... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... Emergency department visits ~56,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Hospitalizations ~26,000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Deaths ~500 deaths/year https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16294364/ Also, direct from FDA, for those promoting its use with alcohol: "Be aware that severe liver damage…

The Pubmed articles are from 20 years ago. The 2023 JAMA article has some qualified information: "In 2021, US poison centers received more than 80 000 cases involving an acetaminophen product.1 The National Electronic Injury Surveillance System estimated that 78 414 emergency department (ED) visits occurred annually in the US from January 1, 2006, through December 31, 2007, for overdoses of acetaminophen-containing p…

What those numbers really don't get into:

~80% of acetaminophen poisoning cases severe enough to end in hospital are intentional suicide attempts.

Those patients also have better outcomes though: family members know what happened, they get them to a hospital, they can take N-acetylcysteine as a timely antidote.

In the unintentional poisoning group, ~90% is from multi-day accumulation, they don't realize they've been poisoning themselves. They have a much higher rate of acute liver failure and death.

https://doi.org/10.1186/cc1475 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cld.2013.07.001 https://doi.org/10.1097/mcg.0b013e31818a3854

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