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The Kimi K3 Moment

stephen.bochinski.dev

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Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#131

Post by dgellow »

qalmakka wrote: post #54

I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was. Get them widespread through cheap pricing and then jacking it up? Being the only ones that had a viable product so to get the ability to extract as much value as you want from AI? I don't understand how a product that: - is interfaced with and is deeply linked to natural language, so everything you produce (sessions, history, etc) is in Markdo…

There is no business model. That’s not a joke, the idea is to be the one that survives the race, then figure out how to be profitable. If you look at the level of capex and money raised, that’s not something you do if you have an actual business plan. We are very far from business fundamentals

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#132

Post by newaccountman2 »

Danox wrote: post #116
rzerowan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically a new iron curtain didving the world into digiatl blocks.The era of open internet/science is on its last legs with the potential forr bifurcation into incompatible ecosystems high , the onger the exchange is disrupted. As recently as this month the USgov has donce a Wolf Amendment style declaration for the Scientific collaboration NSF while shifting its purview under the military. To add to that its trying…

At this point, the United States will lose that battle most Countries in the world are going end up using electronics from Asia, that ship has sailed Japan, China, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, dominate that area, China already dominates EVs, Drones and many other electronic devices, and with the way Donald Trump has picked fights, Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico and many others are looking for ot…

[flagged]

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#133

Post by milkshakes »

Jtarii wrote: post #112
milkshakes wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the USG/NSA will fund chinese labs? to what end?

I was more thinking they would be funding US labs.

the question was: what is the endgame for the stated "second class labs" strategy of distilling their frontier competitors then undercutting them on price?

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#134

Post by gpm »

nickysielicki wrote: post #130
gpm wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've basically got the legal theory. Training a neural network isn't prohibited by copyright law so if you can legally get your hands on something (e.g. by sending a GET request to someone with rights to serve the contents of their web page, or by buying a book) without signing a contract to not train on it, you can train on it. But the American AI companies only let you query their models if you first sign…

Contract law is never going to prevent this.

Why not? Seems like a perfectly normal contact term to me.

Or do you just mean that US courts don't have enough teeth to prevent Chinese companies from violating contracts? On that I agree.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#135

Post by richardfey »

jwr wrote: post #73

Well, there is the small issue of privacy policy: Kimi will train their models on your interactions if you use their subscriptions, and only with direct API usage (billed at API prices) they say they won't. Whether you trust that is another matter. Those things do make a difference to some of us, even though nothing is black and white. In my case, I'll probably want to wait until other providers appear through OpenRo…

Exactly; this is a no-go for me, I will wait for an independent provider to sell the service, which is possible thanks to the open weights.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#136

Post by genxy »

nickysielicki wrote: post #33

Regardless of whether they achieved parity via distillation, or whether they got here via independently constructing a model from scratch, it was always going to end this way for the frontier American labs. Distillation “attacks” are not attacks. The frontier labs “distilled” all existing human written knowledge into their models, there was always going to be a second class lab that would distill that model into a ch…

Look how hard Anthropic is to even be able scroll back on your conversation, or look at the thinking tokens or subagents. They want to keep everyone coming back to the watering hole but never to learn how to dig a well.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#137

Post by andriy_koval »

zaptrem wrote: post #85
boondongle wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all markets depend on some form of regulation whether its as simple as "leave everyone alone but no stealing" or "every participant has to source every object through mountains of red tape." Thus far the US has not really chosen to go the Chinese rare-earth method yet. The problem with distillation attacks is the end result is everyone who is not doing them is going to deal with some kind of regulation whether…

Given these models could not have been trained in the first place if they had to license every line of random fan fiction on the internet, I think distillation also being fair game is a tradeoff everyone should be willing to take (unless they want to decelerate, but that's a different conversation).

Us models didnt pay for licenses too

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#139

Post by IncreasePosts »

milkshakes wrote: post #59
nickysielicki wrote: post #33

Regardless of whether they achieved parity via distillation, or whether they got here via independently constructing a model from scratch, it was always going to end this way for the frontier American labs. Distillation “attacks” are not attacks. The frontier labs “distilled” all existing human written knowledge into their models, there was always going to be a second class lab that would distill that model into a ch…

assume you are a "second class lab" and you are in fact making progress by distilling the results of the frontier labs' efforts. what is the end game for this strategy? if the frontier labs shut down, or stop releasing to the public, and there's noting left to distill, how will you progress?

There doesn't need to be progress at this point. Some models even from 1 or more years ago are useful for some purposes
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