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The Kimi K3 Moment

stephen.bochinski.dev

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Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#101

Post by InsideOutSanta »

aliasxneo wrote: post #90

Even in this very thread the feedback on Kimi's actual efficacy is debated. I personally feel its worse than both Fable and 5.6 Sol, but I feel like the conversation isn't really about whether its good or not, but a backlash against the U.S governments foray into regulation. So I think people _want_ it to be superior out of anger/frustration with the current situation.

It's really good. I'd put it between Sol and Fable. I'm not super impressed by Sol's UI design skills, something K3 is strong at. Fable is still overall the fastest, most consistently well-performing model, though.

This does depend heavily on the kind of work you do and how you use these models, but the idea that K3 isn't right up there with US SOTA models doesn't match my experience.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#102

Post by arberx »

> I think I can see where this goes. The government will try to regulate AI and open source in particular, and it will run the playbook it ran for the auto industry. Decades of subsidies, bailouts, and protective tariffs produced American carmakers that sell trucks at home and barely register anywhere else in the world.

Here's the thing about this though, the auto industry directly employed hundreds of thousands of people.

The AI labs are small, only few benefit directly from their wealth and there's already immense opposition to AI, data centers, etc...

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#103

Post by surgical_fire »

montroser wrote: post #13

This was always where this was heading, but we got here much faster than expected. Once western governments declare it to be a "national security" risk for citizens to have access to open-weight frontier models, and once they classify using these models as acts of terrorism, what will that world be like? Will using Kimi K3 come to be like how napster was in the olden days? Everybody knew it was technically illegal, b…

> western governments

Are you talking about the US, specifically?

Why would other countries, that don't share the same anxiety about China as the US, would be troubled with the this?

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#104

Post by InsideOutSanta »

johnbarron wrote: post #79
petilon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it is H-1B visa. Right out of the university it is hard to recognize extraordinary talent. People like Sundar Pichai were not recognized as extraordinary right out of the university, he had to start at the bottom and rise up the ranks.

Melania got a EB-1 "extraordinary ability" immigrant visa

To be fair, that was clearly well deserved. Marrying Trump and then becoming first lady is definitely an extraordinary ability; I doubt I could have done it.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#105

Post by dgellow »

surgical_fire wrote: post #103
montroser wrote: post #13

This was always where this was heading, but we got here much faster than expected. Once western governments declare it to be a "national security" risk for citizens to have access to open-weight frontier models, and once they classify using these models as acts of terrorism, what will that world be like? Will using Kimi K3 come to be like how napster was in the olden days? Everybody knew it was technically illegal, b…

> western governments Are you talking about the US, specifically? Why would other countries, that don't share the same anxiety about China as the US, would be troubled with the this?

The US might pressure them?

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#106

Post by twelve40 »

qalmakka wrote: post #54

I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was. Get them widespread through cheap pricing and then jacking it up? Being the only ones that had a viable product so to get the ability to extract as much value as you want from AI? I don't understand how a product that: - is interfaced with and is deeply linked to natural language, so everything you produce (sessions, history, etc) is in Markdo…

It seems like the endgame is to amass absurd amounts of hardware and produce something that will replace you the baker entirely

everything else we see today is just preparing for it.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#107

Post by milkshakes »

Jtarii wrote: post #88
milkshakes wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with budgets and what will fund these budgets exactly? inference is cheap, distillation is cheap, training is what's expensive.

Presumably the US military / NSA.

the USG/NSA will fund chinese labs? to what end?

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#108

Post by jug »

SwellJoe wrote: post #8

I tried Kimi K3 on a task I've done with every other model I use regularly ( https://swelljoe.com/post/i-let-every-agent-implement-its-ow... ) and found it chewed a lot longer on the problem and ate up almost the entirety of a 5 hour usage limit on their $19 plan. I only have the $20 plan from OpenAI and the same task, with a lot of the same implementation details as Kimi Code, only took a few minutes and consumed al…

Yeah I've noted this behavior with best in class open weight models. They said K3 would have token efficiency improvements and I was hoping especially solving the thinking loop issue that plagued K2.x but even if this release helped somewhat, it looks like we still have a long way to go here... I'm not sure what's up here but I suppose lacking finetuning quality.

What OpenAI in particular have done with reasoning efficiency in the past few months since ChatGPT 5.5 is nothing short of remarkable. It's overshadowed a bit by the benchmark game and the Fable hoopla.

Now is the time to focus less on token cost and intelligence, but tokens to solve a particular set of tasks in closed benchmarks for a variety of categories.

What is the use of grand intelligence if it either costs you a kidney or can't complete at all within a token budget? Even if there are niche uses where you truly want "maximum power" above all, we need to at least more severely penalize such models versus those that does it just as fine within a tenth of the token cost.

I'm aware of some benchmarks at the Artificial Intelligence site, but CLEARLY we are not focusing enough on these today and still leaving the fun surprises to the users.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#109

Post by petesergeant »

qalmakka wrote: post #54

I never truly understood what the intended business model around LLMs was. Get them widespread through cheap pricing and then jacking it up? Being the only ones that had a viable product so to get the ability to extract as much value as you want from AI? I don't understand how a product that: - is interfaced with and is deeply linked to natural language, so everything you produce (sessions, history, etc) is in Markdo…

The valuation is based on one lab getting a decisive first advantage, and turning that into a durable self-improving advantage that can never be caught up to. If any can pull it off (a gigantic if), they will effectively own most AI value, and the people who own their shares will live happily ever after. Divide your investment between the labs that could plausibly do this, and your EV may not be dreadful.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#110

Post by dgellow »

dehrmann wrote: post #61
SwellJoe wrote: post #8

I tried Kimi K3 on a task I've done with every other model I use regularly ( https://swelljoe.com/post/i-let-every-agent-implement-its-ow... ) and found it chewed a lot longer on the problem and ate up almost the entirety of a 5 hour usage limit on their $19 plan. I only have the $20 plan from OpenAI and the same task, with a lot of the same implementation details as Kimi Code, only took a few minutes and consumed al…

> Subscription usage limits are hard to measure as none of the providers tell you directly what it means in terms of tokens or anything else you can easily compare AI subscription pricing is so goofy. You get some amount of usage that varies by models, is measured by opaque token usage, driven by how many tokens the (usually) vendor-provided interface (or model itself) wants to use. Then your usage is limited by time…

You call it goofy, in a different context we would call that a dark pattern, shady, prone to fraud
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