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EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

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Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#181

Post by tsoukase »

a_gopher wrote: post #57

If reading aloud a children story, you may notice you are able to maintain an independent unrelated train of thought. While doing so, I notice that occasionally extra mistakes can "leak" into the story telling - e.g. you read a single word incorrectly, maybe substituting a word from your other train of thought.

I am reading dozens of books to my children (mostly of Enid Blyton) and I am able to simultaneously think about something else (work stuff, household, HN subjects etc). It lasts a few minutes during which I don't follow what I am reading and I come back and need to start again. Definitely the phonological loop (eyes...mouth) functions independently from the memory-processing-executive cognitive pathway.

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#182

Post by laxpri »

NalNezumi wrote: post #70

Related, but this reminds me of the story by Richard Feynman [1] when he practices counting up to 60 seconds in his head, and after many experiments around what he can do simultaneously conclude that he can simultaneously count and read but not speak. Later sharing this to John Tukey, he's told that Tukey can't read while counting but could speak while counting. Turns out Tukey is visualizing looking at a tape, while…

I dont know why I cant work or read or focus while listening to music , is this the reason why.(or music takes all my attention)

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#183

Post by laxpri »

inigyou wrote: post #105
imzadi wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed something similar. I can listen to audiobooks and follow/absorb what is going on without really paying attention, as long as I am not trying to read something. I can't follow an audiobook and read at the same time. This is probably because I subvocalize when I read. I have taken speed reading courses but I don't enjoy reading that way. I like feeling every word as I read.

I read by imagining a voice saying the words. Is that not how everyone reads?

I also want to know , how people read . I read silently without talking. I also heard that some people read by speaking it loudly( which doesnot help a lot for me)

so can we conclude that the people reading loudly visualizing the words , and the people speak silently , internal-vocalizing the words .

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#184

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

inigyou wrote: post #105
imzadi wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed something similar. I can listen to audiobooks and follow/absorb what is going on without really paying attention, as long as I am not trying to read something. I can't follow an audiobook and read at the same time. This is probably because I subvocalize when I read. I have taken speed reading courses but I don't enjoy reading that way. I like feeling every word as I read.

I read by imagining a voice saying the words. Is that not how everyone reads?

I think there are at least two ways of reading - maybe more.

When I'm normally reading it seems I'm basically going through the motions of reading it aloud to myself, but then suppressing the final verbalization. Sometimes I find myself relaxing in front of the computer with the middle finger of my left hand resting on my lower lip/teeth (I know - sounds odd!), and I can feel some micro-movement in my lips as if they want to move according to what I'm reading.

My other form of reading is a poorly trained version of speed reading where I'm rapidly scanning the page trying to at least get the gist of it, which seems to be more of a purely visual process, recognizing word forms but not getting as far as trying to pronounce them internally (which seems to lead to better understanding, perhaps by slowing down/serializing the process to be more similar to hearing speech).

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#185

Post by laxpri »

BetterThanSober wrote: post #88
hoppp wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can also count while reading, I just tried it. But I can't write while counting. I can have one interpretation and one generative task running at the same time.

I can count while reading and it's fairly easy The sentence below will be written when I'm counting to 60 Let me try counting while writing, it's hard with tons of mistakes and typo (like switching count with write), it's also demonstrably slower with this whole sentence taking more that 60 count. Verbalizing the count is way harder and I need frequent stops to gather my thoughts

counting aloud or in mind

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#186

Post by tgv »

alkyon wrote: post #166
tgv wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a good argument. First, music is not speech. It doesn't require linguistic processing. Second, you can hear chords instead of individual voices, so polyphony can be perceived as shifting harmony, and it usually is.

It's incorrect to reduce polyphony to just shifting harmonies. Harmony is of course the constraint but the whole point is about intertwined voices - various melodies that your brain can process simultaneously. Music is not speech, but it's not that far from the language as it seems in terms of processing. When you hear 2 melodic lines at the same time, you're brain needs to encode them separately, in a similar manner…

The argument is not about "is polyphony shifting harmony" but about "does the brain encode two or more separate signals for polyphonic music." There's nothing that prevents the brain from encoding the whole thing in one stream, and taking that apart at a later stage. E.g., it might code music like "G3 over F, F3 over F, Em, A3 over Em, B3 over Em, C#4 over A7, etc."

It's not that it has to be like this, just that a mere theoretical argument cannot exclude it. And even then, musical perception has basically no relation to language processing.

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#187

Post by RaftPeople »

shortercode wrote: post #92
NalNezumi wrote: post #70

Related, but this reminds me of the story by Richard Feynman [1] when he practices counting up to 60 seconds in his head, and after many experiments around what he can do simultaneously conclude that he can simultaneously count and read but not speak. Later sharing this to John Tukey, he's told that Tukey can't read while counting but could speak while counting. Turns out Tukey is visualizing looking at a tape, while…

Interesting, I experimented a bit with this when my daughter was younger. I used to walk around the room with her in my arms singing to get her to sleep. To ensure she would be settled I would then count 300 steps before putting her in the cot. I discovered I could count and sing at the same time by visualising the number in my head, instead of using my inner monologue. But it requires more focus to maintain. Thankfu…

> I discovered I could count and sing at the same time by visualising the number in my head, instead of using my inner monologue. But it requires more focus to maintain.

Funny timing for this comment, just last week I was running slowly on the treadmill and was counting my steps due to curiosity about steps vs time, and decided to count using images. It definitely takes more effort but I think it's because I hadn't tried it before.

I would hold the tens digit image static and repaint the ones digit until it rolled to the next tens digit, which meant very limited effort was required to retain the tens digit image and most effort was transitioning the ones digit.

The ones digit would not just instantly flash in place, it took a small amount of time and some noticeable deliberate effort for the process to complete, and then it was just in maintenance mode until the next transition.

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#188

Post by laxpri »

alexpotato wrote: post #107

There is an interesting point about this from animation. Imagine you are seeing a pendulum clock and it makes a "tick" on one extreme and "tock" on the other. When they first started doing animation + sound they noticed that if you play the "tock" sound at the exact same time the pendulum hit the extreme, people would think it was delayed. Research showed that humans required a small amount of time to "context switch…

sound is also slow

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#189

Post by alkyon »

tgv wrote: post #186
alkyon wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incorrect to reduce polyphony to just shifting harmonies. Harmony is of course the constraint but the whole point is about intertwined voices - various melodies that your brain can process simultaneously. Music is not speech, but it's not that far from the language as it seems in terms of processing. When you hear 2 melodic lines at the same time, you're brain needs to encode them separately, in a similar manner…

The argument is not about "is polyphony shifting harmony" but about "does the brain encode two or more separate signals for polyphonic music." There's nothing that prevents the brain from encoding the whole thing in one stream, and taking that apart at a later stage. E.g., it might code music like "G3 over F, F3 over F, Em, A3 over Em, B3 over Em, C#4 over A7, etc." It's not that it has to be like this, just that a m…

I'm not so sure it's just perception involved. You're going along a street and can hear a violin playing. A melody develops, you establish a sense of tonality, can predict next sounds maybe. And then you also make out a recorder. Another piece, totally unrelated harmonically. Another stream to process, I would assume a brain can handle it (at least a musical one should).

I agree that language processing is different, but some similarities do exist.

Re: EEG shows brain can simultaneous encode two speech streams

#190

Post by l1ng0 »

inigyou wrote: post #105
imzadi wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed something similar. I can listen to audiobooks and follow/absorb what is going on without really paying attention, as long as I am not trying to read something. I can't follow an audiobook and read at the same time. This is probably because I subvocalize when I read. I have taken speed reading courses but I don't enjoy reading that way. I like feeling every word as I read.

I read by imagining a voice saying the words. Is that not how everyone reads?

This happens to me sometimes when I'm tired and it ruins my enjoyment of the book. Normally I go straight from page to imagination without much conscious awareness of each word.
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