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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#331

Post by vkou »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #177
derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

everyone is very thirsty for AI hate, so its not unexpected. Today its a mixed bag of corpo hate, anxiety about the future, inequality and traditional class warfare, combined with the typical technical ignorance. I would expect companies to blend shit metrics with AI systems, if not at Kaiser then at other places. People lack imagination and using AI to monitor your workforce has to be one of the possibly worst ways…

> Today its a mixed bag of corpo hate, anxiety about the future, inequality and traditional class warfare, combined with the typical technical ignorance.

Are there no actual problems with what it promises/how we're expected to use it at work/how it is used against us by people who use it at work? Is it just anxieties and feelings, that aren't actually grounded in anything? Everything's getting better for everyone, no downsides?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#332

Post by abeindoria »

soared wrote: post #263
Loughla wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you still get doctors for primary care? Our local hospital is hiring nothing but nurse practitioners now. They're amazing in a support role, but not equipped as well for primary care roles.

I’d rather have an NP 10 times out of ten for primary care

Eh. There's a reason the entire noctor subreddit exists. NPs have their places. Replacing doctors with them isn't it.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#333

Post by abeindoria »

dqv wrote: post #141
abeindoria wrote: post #100

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

You're seriously saying it's surprising that your PCP had a different response to AI that is presumably not mandatory for him to use? Cmon dude.

you're frowning on a verbatim experience, considering it a presumption _while_ making another presumption? Come on, dude.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#334

Post by kulahan »

BeetleB wrote: post #58
kulahan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can't ask people because the experience is so universally terrible they'll just tell you it's terrible" isn't really an argument against surveys, it just means you need more specific questions they'll be fired up to answer

Let me suggest the following: Ask the nurses if they want the customer to rate them. A significant fraction of the calls they answer are patients shouting at them because of: - Long wait times - They don't like their doctor - They don't like the advice they're given (sorry, but we're not going to book you as a high priority appointment if all you can tell me is you have a headache. Sorry, we're not going to prescribe…

I’m not sure I understand your point. These things remain true regardless of whether or not you find ways to improve your process. Do we just… not try to improve because there is noise to sift through?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#335

Post by probably_wrong »

andrekandre wrote: post #187
segfault99 wrote: post #178

Workplace metrics and surveillance... What could possibly go wrong? That being said, more than one (female at that) doctor has told me in confidence and based upon their observations during residencies, etc. that if I'm ever admitted, be very careful how I modulate my interactions with nurses. They're not all Florence Nightingale and Mother Theresa and there exist those who will @#$% you up on various pretexts or are…

> Mother Theresa off topic perhaps, but i would hope they were not like mother teresa at all [0] [0] https://allthatsinteresting.com/mother-teresa-saint

Since we're off-topic, most of the information in that article (as it's often the case) is based mostly on Christopher Hitchen's work (book and documentary), a man who describes himself as "antitheist" and made a living out of publicly fighting religion. So not exactly an objective reporter.

I read a good chunk of the criticism against Mother Theresa as either willfull misunderstanding and/or just repeating the same literal three quotes from Hitchen's book (seriously, they're always there). I cannot say whether she was a good person or not, but I can say: if you ask "which evidence is there which doesn't lead back to a man with a personal vendetta?", the list gets significantly shorter.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#336

Post by KronisLV »

adrianN wrote: post #319
obscurette wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being close relative for several med and care workers we have discussed it a lot and consensus is that it really depends. For example relying on LLM summaries sounds great until it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you misunderstand LLM summary or LLM "misunderstands" you – there are real risks involved, and you wouldn't want them to weigh on your conscience if they were to materialize. Relying on LLM to summarize t…

I don’t think that it is possible to both allow the use of LLM and not mandate them in modern metric driven work places. Either you ban them or you force people to use them for game theoretic reasons: they are slower than their peers and quality of the work is harder to measure than quantity. All you achieve is shifting the blame to the employees if the LLM messes up. Come to think of it, that probably is a highly de…

> I don’t think that it is possible to both allow the use of LLM and not mandate them in modern metric driven work places.

What I’d personally be most concerned about would be the risk of bad models instead of SOTA being used which would be especially error and hallucination prone.

If you’re gonna do it, do it right. Otherwise don’t bother at all.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#337

Post by lazide »

HappMacDonald wrote: post #304
johnnyanmac wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The lack of precision in language here sucks. It's a feature. Or at least, a perk. If they want to claim this new shiny rock is AI and people buy it, then of course it's in their best interest to keep the black box mysterious. Being subterfuge for muddying the discourse of critique is just a nice side bonus.

But it is only a perk for the scam artists who benefit from that. Yes, it makes sense that the confusion aligns with their interests, and they are unavoidably a big part of the conversation. But it remains a problem for the non-overlapping group of people who actually value the social contract, and for us finding a solution which helps take one more step to defeat the scammers remains valuable.

Near as I can tell, like crypto, 90% of the ‘discussion’ has been taken over by scam artists, and any folks trying to have a non-scam discussion get yelled at by everyone else.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#338

Post by inigyou »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #259
tomjakubowski wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mangione had back issues and apparently some difficulty in getting treatment for it, but he wasn't insured by UHC. According to his manifesto, he chose Brian Thompson as his victim because UHC was the largest health insurance company in the United States.

It made no sense that he targeted an underling instead of UNH’s head honcho.

How is the CEO not a head honcho?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#339

Post by inigyou »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #208
pstuart wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On corporate whoredom? Absolutely. My pushback is that now is not the time for both-sides-ism. It needs to be addressed but most voters are poorly informed or vote their emotions and that talking point needs to go in the back pocket for later, if there is one. I get your point, and the other one stating that Democrats are not "the left", but they are the the least worst option that a 2 party system offers. The game i…

"My pushback is that now is not the time for both-sides-ism" Of course, and that line of reasoning has consistently failed at the polls since it was deployed as a readguard attempt to bolster Clinton's failed presidential campaign. Like, how many times does the DNC have to stick a fork in this particular outlet before it becomes transparent that this line of rhetoric simply doesn't produce the desired results? Not on…

It seems the DNC are fine with Trump winning. He appeases the corporate doner base, and that's all the DNC wants.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#340

Post by Tomis02 »

Loughla wrote: post #167

The nurses at our local rural hospital are tagged and tracked wherever they go on the hospital campus. Time spent in one spot is part of their review. I wondered why they zip in and out of the rooms, when just a few years ago they would spend fifteen to twenty minutes in each room. The patient load hadn't grown. The number of nurses has gone up, not down. So I'm blaming the stupid metric on their evaluations for a wo…

That's horrible.
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