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Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

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Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#21

Post by jacobian »

oellegaard wrote: post #11
ahelwer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.

Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.

Sheesh, there's just so much that's wrong, disingenuous, and outright hilariously silly about these couple of sentences that I hardly know where to begin. Let's see...

* You don't have a right to attend a private event. The organizers of any event - a conference, a concert, whatever - have the right to ask you to leave at any point for any reason. You are, in fact, more protected with a code of conduct in place because it articulates the process instead of leaving it up to the whims of the organizers.

* You don't have any right to due process or "legal protection"; the conference organizers aren't the police! They're not deciding what's "truth" or not; they're deciding whather to allow you to stay at an event they're responsible for.

* If you're talking about PyCon, it's hardly "a few local programmers". PyCon is a conference with a large staff, a budget of over a million dollars, and an established NPO (the PSF) behind it.

* If you can't trust the organizers of an event, then why the heck are you attending?

* People don't just randomly make up harassment. In reality, harassment is vastly underreported because of the way victims of harassment are routinely ignored, shamed, and blamed.

* Wanna know a really good way to not be accused of harassment? Don't harass anyone! If you find not being a harasser so hard, then yeah you probably shouldn't go to the event.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#22

Post by oellegaard »

kenneth_reitz wrote: post #9
oellegaard wrote: post #4

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.

Harassment is not a political issue.

Certainly not in the culture I identify myself with, but I'm sure there are plenty of countries where sexual harassment is accepted to some degree (if there was not, why would we even talk about implementing this code of conduct?)

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#23

Post by rburgosnavas »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #3

The veteran cynic in me asks who benefits from this action. After all, the behavior that the code of conduct seeks to get on top of is unacceptable in any environment anyway. Yon don't change bad organizational culture with paperwork, you do it with enforcement of standards.

This is one way of enforcing these standards. Think of them as "interfaces" that everyone is exposed to and encourage to implement. It's up to you to go along with them or not, but for the benefit, sake, and sanity of your team members, it is recommended that you stick to them. If one doesn't and things start to get buggy or not compatible, then other would ask you why you didn't follow the implementation.

It is unfortunately that something like this has to be implemented because it is common sense, but if PyCon or any other organization has to be policing their attendees like children until the learn, then so be it.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#24

Post by ahelwer »

oellegaard wrote: post #22
kenneth_reitz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is not a political issue.

Certainly not in the culture I identify myself with, but I'm sure there are plenty of countries where sexual harassment is accepted to some degree (if there was not, why would we even talk about implementing this code of conduct?)

This stuff happens in all countries, okay? It's a real problem. It's not just "some countries."

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#25

Post by jnoller »

oellegaard wrote: post #22
kenneth_reitz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harassment is not a political issue.

Certainly not in the culture I identify myself with, but I'm sure there are plenty of countries where sexual harassment is accepted to some degree (if there was not, why would we even talk about implementing this code of conduct?)

This was stated elsewhere; but the PSF is taking a stance wherein it does not condone harassment and discrimination for events it provides money and support to even if the local standard is to allow for those social norms.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#26

Post by HarryHirsch »

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #6
HarryHirsch wrote: post #3

The veteran cynic in me asks who benefits from this action. After all, the behavior that the code of conduct seeks to get on top of is unacceptable in any environment anyway. Yon don't change bad organizational culture with paperwork, you do it with enforcement of standards.

The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce. Actually, I'm not even sure that "enforcement" is all that relevant. It's more about articulating the norms of behavior so that people can learn from them and grow.

Articulating the norms of behavior? The norms in this code are the basic skills of interacting in society, anyone past the age of 17 should have internalized them. More: one expects anyone past that age of live by them, and consequently one can (and should!) deal with any violator in the appropiate manner.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#27

Post by subsystem »

jnoller wrote: post #2

Fwiw, I'm not the chairman of the PSF, just one of a handful of directors. Van Lindberg is chairman. I am however chair for PyCon and I am responsible for pushing this through.

As someone who more and more is giving up on the "promise of less bullshit" in the software community I think this is a step in the right direction. Good job.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#28

Post by jacobian »

oellegaard wrote: post #14
jacobian wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Living in a [...] gender-equal country [...] Which country is that?

Denmark. The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)

Women in Denmark make about 10% less than men for the same work [1]. Granted, that's better than the US, where it's more like 75¢ on the dollar, but I'd hardly call that equality.

I don't know enough about Denmark to know whether gender discrimination persists in technical fields, but my guess is that women make up far less than half of the technical workforce (that's the case for most of Europe [2]).

[1] http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/the-gender-wage... [2] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=543812.543839

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#29

Post by jnoller »

rburgosnavas wrote: post #23
HarryHirsch wrote: post #3

The veteran cynic in me asks who benefits from this action. After all, the behavior that the code of conduct seeks to get on top of is unacceptable in any environment anyway. Yon don't change bad organizational culture with paperwork, you do it with enforcement of standards.

This is one way of enforcing these standards. Think of them as "interfaces" that everyone is exposed to and encourage to implement. It's up to you to go along with them or not, but for the benefit, sake, and sanity of your team members, it is recommended that you stick to them. If one doesn't and things start to get buggy or not compatible, then other would ask you why you didn't follow the implementation. It is unfo…

I don't think we're policing anyone like children. At least I hope not, I don't have time for that. But the reality is that we live in a time where explicit trumps implicit social norms, for example:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

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