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The Definition of Done

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Re: The Definition of Done

#11

Post by AdityaAnand1 »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #7
aetherspawn wrote: post #3

The biggest trap is thinking something has to be perfect to be done. Imperfect or untested things can also be done. Call them AS-IS if you need to label it.

> … tested with multiple rounds of feedback and iteration, the PR is merged, your team’s related work is also done, and it is live in production and available to the users. This article essentially wants perfection as a definition of “done.”

Directionally, yes.

Part of my motivation for writing this was wondering what would be the solution to what I see as a lot of failed engineering careers of folks in 30s and 40s. I know a lot of them, genuinely great engineers - but somewhere down the line, their expectations of their life shifted, but what they did with their time did not - resulting in dissatisfaction.

Hence, a suggestion to focus on the objective value being created vs. individual engineering tasks as a better barometer of progress.

Re: The Definition of Done

#12

Post by AdityaAnand1 »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #5

> So please tell me again, are you done? Yes. I am done. Is the story done? Of course. There is nothing else to do on that story because we broke things down into these minuscule story cards. Is the feature done? Probably not. If you want to hold the “done” classification on the minuscule story until the roll-up of all the feature’s stories are “done“, merged, QA tested, deployed to staging, PM tested, deployed to us…

Perhaps we should.. break the wheel? :)

Re: The Definition of Done

#13

Post by AdityaAnand1 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #9

I had an instructor, at a software project management course I attended, who kept saying "We need to know what 'done' looks like." That's something that I've adopted as a personal mantra. It doesn't just mean have all the proper boxes been ticked. It also means we're done adding stuff. Time to take out the 600-grit sandpaper, and start finish work.

Yes, this is closest to what I was going for. So much of traditional engineering language and ceremony ignores a lot of things that go with getting something done but never get spoken, measured, or rewarded.

Re: The Definition of Done

#15

Post by jagged-chisel »

AdityaAnand1 wrote: post #11
jagged-chisel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> … tested with multiple rounds of feedback and iteration, the PR is merged, your team’s related work is also done, and it is live in production and available to the users. This article essentially wants perfection as a definition of “done.”

Directionally, yes. Part of my motivation for writing this was wondering what would be the solution to what I see as a lot of failed engineering careers of folks in 30s and 40s. I know a lot of them, genuinely great engineers - but somewhere down the line, their expectations of their life shifted, but what they did with their time did not - resulting in dissatisfaction. Hence, a suggestion to focus on the objective v…

I believe some of the objections (especially mine) are conflating your intent with Agile/Scrum "definition of done." Personally, and honestly as a humble suggestion, I would like to see this discrepancy in perception addressed in the article. Indeed, the problem is mine, but a minor nudge in the right direction would have changed my response immensely.

Re: The Definition of Done

#16

Post by jagged-chisel »

AdityaAnand1 wrote: post #12
jagged-chisel wrote: post #5

> So please tell me again, are you done? Yes. I am done. Is the story done? Of course. There is nothing else to do on that story because we broke things down into these minuscule story cards. Is the feature done? Probably not. If you want to hold the “done” classification on the minuscule story until the roll-up of all the feature’s stories are “done“, merged, QA tested, deployed to staging, PM tested, deployed to us…

Perhaps we should.. break the wheel? :)

I replied to your other reply to me. I don't know where my message actually belongs - here or there. I will leave it at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48907739 because I can't decide >.<

Re: The Definition of Done

#18

Post by rekabis »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #7
aetherspawn wrote: post #3

The biggest trap is thinking something has to be perfect to be done. Imperfect or untested things can also be done. Call them AS-IS if you need to label it.

> … tested with multiple rounds of feedback and iteration, the PR is merged, your team’s related work is also done, and it is live in production and available to the users. This article essentially wants perfection as a definition of “done.”

I disagree. Testing with multiple rounds of feedback and iteration, with merging and related work done, with everything in production and available to the users is done, but is it perfect?

Not necessarily.

I see it as having dealt with all low-hanging fruit. Of handling anything reasonably expected at that point. Bugs will remain. Exploits will doubtless be found. But so long as all reasonable efforts were made to find and deal with them, that is good enough.

Because a perfect product will never be done.

And a done product cannot possibly ever be perfect.

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