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A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

sam.sutch.net

41–50 of 89 posts

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#41

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

It's a Skinner box of productivity. Of course it's polarizing.

My own enthusiasm varies wildly day to day. I've been sick of squinting at punctuation marks and opening sequences of of tabs to trace through annoying abstraction layers for a long time; so I'm really excited to see those activities effectively automated away. But the same tools enable some really bad behavior (in myself and others), which really gets me down.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#42
post #9

30 years in the industry for me. It’s been a wild last few years watching this transformation. Like the OP I find it wholly unpleasant and I also can’t deny the productivity boost. I’m very glad I’m nearly ready for retirement and I look forward to watching this “progress” from a comfortable distance.

In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? 25 years in my case, by the way, and I have found this to be the most liberating and creativity-boosting period of my career. And it’s not even close. I’ve written code in more languages in the past few years than in any other period. I’m finishing more projects than ever before. I’m learning faster than ever before. I’m enjoying programming more than ever befo…

the people I know who hate AI have a bizarre and unrelatable love for the pure math aspect of software engineering - the elegant software architecture, the efficient programming languages. the people who only care about getting stuff done are loving AI but people who spent their life learning how to properly craft high quality software are weeping - as they should be - now they know how kasparov felt

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#43

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

Some people never really liked writing code. They liked the result and the paycheck much more. Those folks are having the time of their lives now. Well, until the fall happens and software development is assmebly-lined.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#44

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

It’s because there always were two types of engineers and the difference was never clear until this technology existed. Some love the craft, and some love the results.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#45

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

It’s the NES Game Genie.

Unlimited lives and the ability to walk through walls is great fun for a bit. But also, you never actually played the game and it kinda ruined it for you, for all time.

You’ve seen the outcome, you solved nothing, learned nothing, and there’s zero reason for you to ever be proud of it.

The outcome isn’t yours, it’s the chatbots. Maybe you lie to yourself a bit… but you were barely necessary.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#47

I'm sitting at about a decade of experience and it feels equally bad here. Honestly right now I'm mostly waiting for either AI to blow up and companies to scale back massively or for other engineers to deskill themselves into oblivion so that skilled engineers get the edge again. If neither gambit pay out then I'll just go find some other career and keep software as my hobby. I'm not going to let this billion dollar…

[deleted]

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#48
post #9

30 years in the industry for me. It’s been a wild last few years watching this transformation. Like the OP I find it wholly unpleasant and I also can’t deny the productivity boost. I’m very glad I’m nearly ready for retirement and I look forward to watching this “progress” from a comfortable distance.

In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? 25 years in my case, by the way, and I have found this to be the most liberating and creativity-boosting period of my career. And it’s not even close. I’ve written code in more languages in the past few years than in any other period. I’m finishing more projects than ever before. I’m learning faster than ever before. I’m enjoying programming more than ever befo…

> Skip the vibe coding, just let AI be a helper.

This I think will explain the differences in experience in industry. As pressures increase, control and power moves away from developers who have historically had a pretty strong position to dictate how they work.

Not everyone is going to be able to use AI as just a tool. The reality I have seen is that AI has sped the time-to-pr up for those who don't care what they ship, so that gets baked into estimates and expectations.

Eventually those working carefully with AI will be like the carpenter still using hand tools while the shop is operating CNC machines. The business can't afford the craftsmanship, no matter how right the craftsman is to point out that their work is better.

This is why I love AI as an enabler for myself personally, but still think it's going to ruin the experience of being in the industry.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all sincerity, what do you mean by wholly unpleasant? 25 years in my case, by the way, and I have found this to be the most liberating and creativity-boosting period of my career. And it’s not even close. I’ve written code in more languages in the past few years than in any other period. I’m finishing more projects than ever before. I’m learning faster than ever before. I’m enjoying programming more than ever befo…

the people I know who hate AI have a bizarre and unrelatable love for the pure math aspect of software engineering - the elegant software architecture, the efficient programming languages. the people who only care about getting stuff done are loving AI but people who spent their life learning how to properly craft high quality software are weeping - as they should be - now they know how kasparov felt

There is room in this world for Mcdonalds and Michelin Chefs.

I would also take your comment with a grain of salt. If the people you are talking about are javascript developers or people who do leetcode in interviews but never write that kind of code on the job, they are probably delusional. Ive seen many people call it a “craft” and what they produce is nothing of the sort.

If you really are good, you’ll still be in demand where it matters.

Re: A grumpy screed about AI in software engineering

#50

Why do some software engineers love AI and some hate it? I've got senior engineers (20+ yoe) who have never been having more fun and then some who feel like OP here. Why is it so decisive? There's no other tool (not even emacs) that's caused this sort of division.

"software engineer" covers a wide range of responsibilities. some engineers spend all their time contributing to the physics in a massive graphics engine. some spend most of their time as the sole maintainer of a web api that mostly plumbs together a bunch of services and provide data to UIs. some are frequently spitting out new services while other are maintaining 10 year old legacy codebases. the work we need to do, the tradeoffs we need to make, its just so vast.

now couple that with the wide range of variety (and dysfunction) that come from the business and organization. being a dev for a company which sells software is a whole different beast than being an in-house dev for a company which sells other products. startup, big org, old org, new org, strike team, the list goes on.

finally, engineers enjoy different aspects of building software more than others. the puzzle, the crafting, the api, the data structure, the architecture, solving end user needs, so many facets to what makes it enjoyable as a career.

this is a big reason why ai discourse online is so uneven and often unhelpful. were all assuming too much about what being a software engineer is; forgetting that my day-to-day can be wildly different than yours.

a lot of ai speedup comes from effective delegation of work. i do it, but i don't like it. it actively makes me feel tired in a way i don't feel when i do the work myself, or when i mentor and grow my team to do the work.

many other devs don't feel the way i do. some suddenly have these ai tools that make them feel more empowered and energized and excited.

llm's are genuinely a new computing paradigm because of their nature: plain human language as the interface. this is different enough that mapping our past computing concepts (like the evolution from assembly to C) may not hold as well as seem they should.

this all digs deep into who we are as individuals with specific desires, career history, goals, a specific role at a specific company. the part that's fucking beautiful and unique and human.

But if the aggressive industry-wide layoffs aren't enough of a clue, these giant ass companies (and the ai gatekeepers driving this shift) are not compatible with individual humans.

i dont mind llms as a tool, but im done with the perverse level of greed and inhumanity they seem to inspire in corporate leaders.

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