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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#121

Post by xp84 »

wisty wrote: post #95
BeetleB wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you employ a few hundred nurses, how exactly would you evaluate how well they show empathy? You can't rely on asking the customer. When they're upset (they often are in these calls), they'll lean towards the negative regardless. I don't know how well these AIs evaluate, but if they're even a little bit good, it makes sense to use it to screen for outliers, then have a human listen to those outliers and judge.

There's a great academic book called "Stupid Rules". Excessive rules (or KPIs - often rules in disguise) exist because we don't like authority. Get the doctor to assess the nurse. Or the head nurses if you don't trust doctors. The nurses have managers, and if none of the doctors or head nurses can be trusted with a simple matter like assessing whether nurses are doing their jobs then you got bigger issues. Oh no, the…

When reading the headline I was thinking we were talking about evaluating things like whether a nurse asked the right questions of the patient from a best practices point of view (say you have and the best practices for that are to ask the patient about pain level and which side it's coming from and check in with them every X hours).

But evaluating tone and empathy? Great, now every nurse is gonna be wasting their time and energy making sure to recite the best canned, optimized text-adventure incantations for the KPI every time they enter the room instead of using their brains to see what the patient actually needs.

"Hello Mr. Smith our patients are our top priority at Kaiser and your nursing staff here at Kaiser Raccoon City are here to make sure you are cared for, comfortable, and safe. If you have any concerns or are feeling anxiety be sure to press the nurse button and we will be happy to assist you, we appreciate the trust you place in us and are eager to celebrate your recovery with you."

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#122

Post by procflora »

ButlerianJihad wrote: post #80
wilg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you suppose thats why they wrote "principally"?

You're absolutely wrong! And here is why: I guarantee you that the nurses are working in the "for-profit" units, and also, that still betrays ignorance of what "non-profit" actually means, which is the load-bearing topic of this thread.

Ok fine, but I bet you can't come up with a good gluten free banana bread recipe.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#123

Post by xboxnolifes »

inigyou wrote: post #21
neaden wrote: post #3

If you think using a machine to evaluate how well a human is showing empathy is a good idea, you probably shouldn't have any position of power.

Power is based on wealth extraction, not merit.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/should

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#124

Post by jmye »

abeindoria wrote: post #100

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

Similarly, I think anything we can do to help take the burden off the mundane parts of the job has helped clinicians focus on the actual hard parts. Where we get... bristling, is when there's any suggestion of "legislating" (operationally, not like, governmentally) care patterns and telling clinicians how to care for their patients.

Which is great, because anyone suggesting AI should replace clinical judgment and work is an idiot.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#125

Post by jmye »

fhub wrote: post #104

There is an unfortunate cycle that has been playing out this year in USA. Insurance companies are arming up with AI to deny billing codes charged by providers. Providers are arming up with AI to listen in on provider-patient sessions to prove the billing codes are legit (And teach providers to use keywords in session). The loser, as always, is the patient's quality of care.

> Providers are arming up with AI to listen in on provider-patient sessions to prove the billing codes are legit

This is not a decrease in quality of care - this is your provider having actual evidence of the care needs they discussed with you when they close their note, hours or days after seeing you.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#126

Post by pstuart »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #91
datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasingly true in Trump’s America. It’s somewhat the point of democracy to maintain a limit on rent seekers’ and wealth extractors’ power on the political process. It should come as no surprise that the individuals who have grifted and extorted their way into power are also fiercely antidemocratic. The xenophobes and bigots that have hitched their wagons are equally deplorable.

I'ma keep it creamy with you, both parties have had the kind of political majority required to clamp down on the corporatization of our society, and neither have so much as paid lip service to doing so. You want to be mad at the current administration by all means there's fertile ground, but don't waste anyone's time blaming them for a situation that's been decades in the making with both major political parties push…

If you're going to play the "both sides are the same" game you need to be more precise in what that means. DNC is absolutely subservient to their patrons and party leadership in general owned by the donor class.

But the similarities stop there. The party platforms are in stark difference, and the GOP is now literally a cult of personality run by a mob boss. The naked corruption is off the charts.

In fact right now Trump is working to cancel or refusing to acknowledge mid-term elections and acts as if he were king.

I say this as someone who used to be a Democrat but left in disgust when Clinton remade the DNC into pro corporate puppetry. Partisan politics is a cancer on the citizenry and may very well be the end of what we call democracy in the United States.

I've tracked presidential politics since watching the Watergate hearings and what is happening today is beyond the political pale.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#129

Post by inigyou »

teachrdan wrote: post #68
doodlebugging wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is. Somehow that might appear to be incentive to improve quality of care but maybe their corporate culture is a bad fit for quality.

> that might appear to be incentive to improve quality Their goal isn't to provide high quality care. Their goal is to increase profits. It's not hard to imagine how improved quality would lead them to spend more money. (faster diagnoses of serious illnesses and recommending expensive care)

How many dollars is a dead CEO worth?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#130

Post by inigyou »

pstuart wrote: post #126
forgetfreeman wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'ma keep it creamy with you, both parties have had the kind of political majority required to clamp down on the corporatization of our society, and neither have so much as paid lip service to doing so. You want to be mad at the current administration by all means there's fertile ground, but don't waste anyone's time blaming them for a situation that's been decades in the making with both major political parties push…

If you're going to play the "both sides are the same" game you need to be more precise in what that means. DNC is absolutely subservient to their patrons and party leadership in general owned by the donor class. But the similarities stop there. The party platforms are in stark difference, and the GOP is now literally a cult of personality run by a mob boss. The naked corruption is off the charts. In fact right now Tr…

On this particular issue both sides are identical. On other issues they are not.
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