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Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

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Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#11

[dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48938001

Also, highly related with significant discussion in the past 2 days:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48933344 - "SpaceX stock erases all its gains and slides below IPO price in intraday trading" - latimes.com | 306 points | 1 day ago | 281 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48920181 - "SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status" - ft.com | 561 points | 2 days ago | 603 comments

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#12
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

Alice holds SpaceX stock and believes it will rise. Bob believes the stock will fall. Alice and Bob reach an agreement for Alice to "lend" their SpaceX stock to Bob for a small "fee". Bob immediately sells the SpaceX stock at the current market value. After some time Bob will buy back the sold SpaceX stock at the current market value (hopefully less than Bob sold it for) and return the "borrowed" SpaceX stock to Alice thereby fulfilling the original contract.

It's also possible Bob's thesis on SpaceX could have been wrong and the shares could skyrocket. There's usually a provision in the contract for Alice to recall the shares she lent to Bob. In this case, Bob would be forced to buy SpaceX stock at the current market value and likely lose money on the overall trade.

To answer your specific question, "Who do you make money from?" It's actually not clear. Bob selling-high and buying-low doesn't necessarily mean whom Bob sells-to and whom he buys-from are on losing sides of the trade despite Bob making a profit. E.g. the buyer of Bob's short-sell could write calls and the stock could close pass the strike on expiration and turn a small profit as well.

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#13
post #8
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

> who do you make money from? When you own stock at a broker in a margin account, you may sign an agreement to allow the broker to lend out your stock to someone else. For lending your stock, you are entitled to a stock-borrow fee which usually is quite small say 0.25%, and paid by the borrower (short-seller). The borrower then sells the stock to someone else. At a later point, the short seller closes their position…

You can also sell in the money call options in anticipation the stock will go down. You keep the premium the call buyer pays.

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#14
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

you borrow shares from a permabull and immediately sell them to whatever is buying

all you owe is the number of shares you sold, the original owner doesnt care what happened as long as they get identical ones back eventually. In the meantime, you pay interest on the initial value of what you borrowed and sold

You just sit on the cash

later when the shares are cheaper, you buy shares on the open market and give them back to the person you borrowed from

whatever cash is leftover from rebuying is your profit

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#15
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

1) borrow the stock

2) sell it

3) rebuy it at the lower price (assuming you're right)

4) give it back to whomever you borrowed it from plus a consideration for letting you hold what's theirs for a bit

Whatever's left after you return the stock and pay the interest is your profit, which comes from the people who bought it from you in step 2. If you're wrong, and the price goes up, you have to replace the stock you borrowed at a higher price than you got for it and that's your loss (which could potentially be infinite, as opposed to long positions where you can only lose what you initially invested)

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#16
post #9
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

The market just redistributes wealth from less informed players to more sophisticated/informed ones.

I wouldn't quite go that far. The fact that markets can remain irrational longer than participants can remain solvent means that participants with deeper pockets have an inherent advantage, even if they have less information. How quickly a random walk will take you to zero depends on how far above the baseline you start.

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#17
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

Keep in mind that unlike purchasing a stock where the most amount of money you can lose is the amount of money you spend buying the stock (assuming you didn't buy it on margin), if you directly short a stock, there's technically no limit to the amount of money you could lose. If a stock goes up 1000% after you short it, then you could lose far more money than you put into it.

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#18
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

Alice holds SpaceX stock and believes it will rise. Bob believes the stock will fall. Alice and Bob reach an agreement for Alice to "lend" their SpaceX stock to Bob for a small "fee". Bob immediately sells the SpaceX stock at the current market value. After some time Bob will buy back the sold SpaceX stock at the current market value (hopefully less than Bob sold it for) and return the "borrowed" SpaceX stock to Alic…

It’s also not always the case that Alice is the loser. If SpaceX stock jumps up again after the position closes, then Alice is making money and both parties are winners.

Re: Short sellers notch $8.7B profit as SpaceX shares dip to IPO price

#20
post #3

If you make money shorting a stock, who do you make money from?

Keep in mind that unlike purchasing a stock where the most amount of money you can lose is the amount of money you spend buying the stock (assuming you didn't buy it on margin), if you directly short a stock, there's technically no limit to the amount of money you could lose. If a stock goes up 1000% after you short it, then you could lose far more money than you put into it.

You can always hedge your shorts and limit your downside. It’s not a huge issue unless you have absolutely no idea what you are doing.
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