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An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

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Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#51
post #21

Guides like this explain why there are so many broken USB-C devices. The guide mentions that you do not need a PD chip for 5Vs, but then tells you that USB C is a cold connector meaning 0V is on VBUS when nothing is connected and jumps straight into the complexities of the PD protocol running over the CC pins instead of explaining how to get the 5V without the PD chip first. Then in the section where it tells you how…

Now I want to know, how to add larger than 10uF cap?

You need a soft-start circuit between the USB connector and your big cap. When you first connect the USB device, the cap has no charge (0V) so it appears as a short to ground to the host 5V supply. The result is a large current spike which can draw down the host supply below some functional threshold or even damage it. We could oversize the host supply to deal with a 25 A transient and add cost and introduce safety concerns or push the solution to the connecting device where the problem exists. The solution is to ramp the current up "slowly" over several ms using a transistor on the device side. While the transistor is turned on slowly, it isn't fully conducting, acting as a variable resistor. The transistor is dissipating power during this transition so it must be sized correctly and timing controlled deliberately. Hence why we want the same design to contain the cap, transistor, and ramp control. A typical circuit might be: connector->small cap->soft start->big cap->main circuit. The soft start feature is often just built into a voltage regulator since there's already a transistor and control circuitry there but you can also get a dedicated load switch if you only want ~5V. The 10uF requirement is a contractual agreement between host and device that ensures compatibility between devices. If you don't follow it, a sophisticated host may simply cut power when it sees the current spike and that would be the device's problem.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#52
post #30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were non-apple lightning cables already. And I have to say, the lightning connector itself is better than the usb-c connect in my opinion. I get that having the pins on the male* plug is a theoretical advantage in durability but that has not been my experience with usb-c connector durability on either end. EDIT: usb-c has pins on the male plug. Which is what I meant. So female -> male.

> the lightning connector itself is better than the usb-c connect in my opinion. I get that having the pins on the male* plug is a theoretical advantage in durability but that has not been my experience with usb-c connector durability on either end. I always end up picking a lot of dust out of my usb-c ports on my phones; or otherwise the port wears out and disconnects before charging completes. (Right after my wife…

For everyone one with issues with lint either in a USB or Lightning port I really recommend an inexpensive can of compressed air.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#53
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My phone's USB-C port is worn out, and so now it's a brick if I don't have a wireless charging dock around. Is it physically impossible to get bandwidth and power out of something as durable as a Magsafe connector, even a larger-scale version?

How do you "wear out" a usbc port? Is this phone like 15 years old? My imagination is boggled.

It's a narrow connector and sideways force acts like a knife on the shell. blowing out the sides. and then the connector is unreliable. It is better than microusb but worse than usb-a.

So it depends on how you baby it, but a few good accidental tugs can ruin a phone.

I like to run my game controllers wired and ruined one(xbox-one controller) this way when I got a bit agitated during a game, it's replacement(8-bitdo wired) is much better designed where the plug housing goes in a snug inset in the controller. Providing strain relief. I dread having to find a new plug that fits if it goes bad. but a narrow plug should work, granted without the strain relief.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#54
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I want to know, how to add larger than 10uF cap?

You need a soft-start circuit between the USB connector and your big cap. When you first connect the USB device, the cap has no charge (0V) so it appears as a short to ground to the host 5V supply. The result is a large current spike which can draw down the host supply below some functional threshold or even damage it. We could oversize the host supply to deal with a 25 A transient and add cost and introduce safety c…

Realistically, most USB devices hiccup when they exceed their current limit, especially in 5V mode. And since caps don’t loose charge that quickly typically, you can usually charge the cap up enough to deal with this transient no matter how big your cap is (unless it’s something absolutely enormous… which wouldn’t be implemented for cost reasons)

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#55
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My phone's USB-C port is worn out, and so now it's a brick if I don't have a wireless charging dock around. Is it physically impossible to get bandwidth and power out of something as durable as a Magsafe connector, even a larger-scale version?

How do you "wear out" a usbc port? Is this phone like 15 years old? My imagination is boggled.

A year of plugging it in once or twice a day to recharge it, and it blew.

Old rectangular USB-A was only rated for 1500 ideal insertions. USB-C is a big improvement at 10,000 ideal insertions. Most insertions are not ideal, and it is relatively common to have some leveraged pressure trying to wedge the port apart; When my phone bridges the gap between the arm of the sofa and the coffee table while plugged in, for example, it's got a bending moment. USB-C is much thinner in the up-down dimension than USB-A, and it is not designed to safely disengage when side-loaded like Magsafe. If you wanted to break it for some reason, I'm pretty sure you could do it in a few seconds while resting your elbows on the table, on grip strength alone.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#56
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a soft-start circuit between the USB connector and your big cap. When you first connect the USB device, the cap has no charge (0V) so it appears as a short to ground to the host 5V supply. The result is a large current spike which can draw down the host supply below some functional threshold or even damage it. We could oversize the host supply to deal with a 25 A transient and add cost and introduce safety c…

Realistically, most USB devices hiccup when they exceed their current limit, especially in 5V mode. And since caps don’t loose charge that quickly typically, you can usually charge the cap up enough to deal with this transient no matter how big your cap is (unless it’s something absolutely enormous… which wouldn’t be implemented for cost reasons)

I have seen this play out with host devices with robust current limiting outputs. Sometimes it works for the connected device and sometimes the device sabotages itself when its own regulator turns on at say 3.6 V, drawing down the partially charged input cap below the regulator's UVLO and turning itself off again. Then the cap starts charging again and the cycle starts over. Depending on the host implementation, the burp mode may not reset without a full disconnection, at best leaving the connected device to sip a low average voltage and low current or persist in the above loop forever. Making sure this doesn't happen is more difficult than just implementing inrush limiting.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Lightning was possibly a nicer or smaller connector; nothing beats a true industry standard. Makes the entire “what chargers and cables to bring to connect my stuff” question so much easier.

Sadly, that's far from truth... "back in the day", you had an ericsson charger that fit in an ericsson phone and charget that ericsson phone well... and you had a nokia charger for you nokia that charged your nokia. They physically looked different, they wouldn't fit into any other device, and when you needed a charger, you'd take the one that fit the charging hole and it would charge. Now, you have a bunch of usb C…

In practice, this complexity means you at least have a chance. Most phones and almost all low-power devices will accept power from most chargers and cables. Probably not at a maximum level, but if you're stuck somewhere you can get by.

Power-hungry laptops are trickier, but even so... I've gone a week or more trickle charging a laptop from whatever travel charger I happened to have on hand, using it for a few hours, then putting it in standby and charging it up again until finally the mfg-blessed replacement fast charger arrived. The alternative (and one I was faced with more than once in the bad old days) was "no laptop".

Worst experience I've had to date has been a Norco jump box that will charge via one high-power charger and one cable, a car charger it came with, and ... Via careful back feeding from a benchtop power supply.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#58
post #30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were non-apple lightning cables already. And I have to say, the lightning connector itself is better than the usb-c connect in my opinion. I get that having the pins on the male* plug is a theoretical advantage in durability but that has not been my experience with usb-c connector durability on either end. EDIT: usb-c has pins on the male plug. Which is what I meant. So female -> male.

> the lightning connector itself is better than the usb-c connect in my opinion. I get that having the pins on the male* plug is a theoretical advantage in durability but that has not been my experience with usb-c connector durability on either end. I always end up picking a lot of dust out of my usb-c ports on my phones; or otherwise the port wears out and disconnects before charging completes. (Right after my wife…

One reason is that Lightning couldn't do the faster speeds or extra modes like USB-C. There were USB3 and display adapters but they were sort of hacks. USB-C was used for MacBooks and iPad Pros. USB-C allows passive adapters to USB2 and USB3.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#59

Guides like this explain why there are so many broken USB-C devices. The guide mentions that you do not need a PD chip for 5Vs, but then tells you that USB C is a cold connector meaning 0V is on VBUS when nothing is connected and jumps straight into the complexities of the PD protocol running over the CC pins instead of explaining how to get the 5V without the PD chip first. Then in the section where it tells you how…

USB-C uses resistors to signal the power level for 5V. There is 5.1k for USB legacy, and I forget for 7.5W and 15W. Lots of cheap devices leave out the 5.1k resistors and depend on the same resistors in the USB-C to USB-A cable.

It is perfectly fine for USB-C device to signal USB Legacy since every charger needs to support it for microUSB to USB-C cables. The other way is for device to dynamically negotiate power level with the charger, but this is different than USB PD for higher voltage.

Re: An Engineer's Guide to USB Typе-С (2024)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Lightning was possibly a nicer or smaller connector; nothing beats a true industry standard. Makes the entire “what chargers and cables to bring to connect my stuff” question so much easier.

Sadly, that's far from truth... "back in the day", you had an ericsson charger that fit in an ericsson phone and charget that ericsson phone well... and you had a nokia charger for you nokia that charged your nokia. They physically looked different, they wouldn't fit into any other device, and when you needed a charger, you'd take the one that fit the charging hole and it would charge. Now, you have a bunch of usb C…

Yep, we gained nothing from moving laptops and other high power devices into USB, instead of finishing the standardization of the barrel connector. Laptops chargers were already almost all compatible, and there is no reason to mix them with the low power devices.
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