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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#341

Post by efficax »

adverbly wrote: post #218
ekojs wrote: post #37

> In our evaluations, Kimi K3 delivers frontier-level performance. Among the models tested, its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol. For the complete benchmark results, see our tech blog. The full model weights of Kimi K3 will be released in the coming days. More details on the architecture, training, and evaluation will be published together with the Kimi K3 technical report. > K…

> Maybe another DeepSeek moment right here. Surely not... What made DeepSeek disruptive was that the cost was 10X lower. In this case, the cost is about 2X lower the Sol I think? At 2X, you're pretty close to the error margins due to token efficiency etc... I'd say this is "on trend" for open models catching up to frontier labs, but its not a "change in the trend" like DeepSeek was IMO.

cost has nothing to do with why deepseek was disruptive, the fact that it means there is zero moat around anthropic or openai is what's disruptive about it. it means in the mid-term LLMs will be commoditized and customers will flock to the cheapest inference wherever they can find it. there's no reason to stick to the "frontier" labs

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#342

Post by MaxPock »

vonneumannstan wrote: post #334
natrys wrote: post #227

Some official benchmark numbers posted in Chinese social media (I am sure they will publish an English blogpost later too): https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ Generally looks like a Sol/Fable tier model, better across the board than Opus 4.8. (Edit) English blogpost is up now: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3

[flagged]

Do you have moat if your advanced model can be distilled in a month or two ?

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#343

Post by seizethecheese »

anigbrowl wrote: post #326
seizethecheese wrote: post #302

Kimi doesn't do well on my "ask a trivia question that other AIs get wrong" test. The question it came up with, "which U.S. state is closest to Africa?" is a pretty standard trivia question without any reason to believe other AIs would get confused. https://pellmell.ai/s/dccdeca69f929f79bc89317035610049 Even GPT-OSS-120b gets this right: https://pellmell.ai/s/1a43dfc7a3baa214aa0fa1b95d2c536a

Are you giving it your API for these other AIs to evaluate their responses? This 'test' seems perverse.

I don't understand the question.

The other AIs don't see the question until they are asked to react.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#345

Post by mahkeiro »

ImageXav wrote: post #336
Tiberium wrote: post #2

More details: - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat-k3 1M context, pricing is $3/$15 for 1M tokens (cache $0.3), which is extremely high for a Chinese open-weight model, but if it's truly competitive with most of the current frontier and is only behind Fable/Sol, the pricing is justified. This is 1:1 pricing of Anthropic's Sonnet series (except Sonnet 5…

I've been avidly using Fable since it was re-released and while it has been excellent at building the apps I want, the reasoning has been completely opaque. Kim, however, has exposed the whole reasoning trace, or enough of it to matter. I'd almost forgotten how nice it is to see this. I've been able to see all of the weird twist and turns it takes and it is joyful. But also, far, far more informative and means I can…

The reasoning is key as most of the time the summary provided by fable is not enough to understand the choice and correct the logic. You have to either fully trust it or go to an exhaustive code review. This with the fact that you can only use 4.8 to security review the code produce by fable are the reasons I will not renew my anthropic subscription, the current experience is way to degraded.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#346

Post by lvillani »

dovin wrote: post #330

Just in case you were thinking of signing up directly with Moonshot to use the service, they appear to train even on API use: > We may use Content to provide, maintain, develop, support, and improve the Services, comply with applicable law, enforce our terms and policies, and keep the Services safe and secure. Customer who requires restrictions on the use of Customer Content for training or improving Moonshot AI mode…

Interesting. OpenRouter classifies the Moonshot provider as ZDR. I wonder whether they have a ZDR agreement or it's a misclassification on their part.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#347

Post by surgical_fire »

modeless wrote: post #265

Anthropic's "durable advantage" theory of US AI dominance is looking pretty silly. There's zero indication that it will be hard for China to keep pace as models improve and start contributing to their own training. Which pretty much invalidates their policy recommendations. They can't even blame it on distillation this time, unless they want to claim that their own preferred security measures were ineffective in prev…

I remember that more than a year ago, when Anthropic and OpenAI started to hide reasoning steps, some were claiming that Chinese models were done, as they could only distill those US models.

I am very curious for the next batch of Chinese models. I have been using DeepSeek and it is nothing short of excellent.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#349

Post by epistasis »

ImageXav wrote: post #336
Tiberium wrote: post #2

More details: - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat-k3 1M context, pricing is $3/$15 for 1M tokens (cache $0.3), which is extremely high for a Chinese open-weight model, but if it's truly competitive with most of the current frontier and is only behind Fable/Sol, the pricing is justified. This is 1:1 pricing of Anthropic's Sonnet series (except Sonnet 5…

I've been avidly using Fable since it was re-released and while it has been excellent at building the apps I want, the reasoning has been completely opaque. Kim, however, has exposed the whole reasoning trace, or enough of it to matter. I'd almost forgotten how nice it is to see this. I've been able to see all of the weird twist and turns it takes and it is joyful. But also, far, far more informative and means I can…

I have severe complaints about Anthropic's product managers on this front. Their preference for hiding, obscuring, and trying to wrest control from the user are a bit harrowing. It would be wonderful to go back to Claude Code from before March. It seems like every release destroys value for me!

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#350

Post by ifwinterco »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #151
dghlsakjg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tokenizers also matter. Anthropics tokenizers will encode the same piece of text at a way higher token count than OpenAi, for example. That said, Kimi is competing against GLM in my mind, and GLM 5.2 is less than 1/3 the price.

GLM is actually quite expensive in actual practice because it's not very token efficient. I've yet to find a way to run it on a monthly sub reliably for cheaper than Codex. Neuralwatt was cheap (but slow) but they cranked their price. Ollama monthly sub is speedy but doesn't offer a lot of quota. Right now unless you're paying by the token, there's no cost based reason to use the open weight models for daily coding w…

I found this with kimi k2.7 as well: on paper it should be quite cheap, but it's not because it uses a lot of tokens for quite simple tasks
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