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Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

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Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#11

Post by stymaar »

akersten wrote: post #8

Text is simply not information dense enough to be able to decode some arbitrary signal of provenance from it. Sure you might be able to detect today's tells (particular sentence structures preferred by Claude, phrases, etc) to get you some arbitrary chance percentage it was machine generated, but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Images, absolutely, there are…

> but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading.

Hard disagree. LLMs (especially base ones, that only received pre-training) can produce output that is undistinguishable from human writing (because that's what they were trained to do).

But commercial chat models are specifically tuned in a way that maximizes user engagement. It's that specific tuning that is very easy to spot when reading AI slop, and that's not surprising that it's easy to spot automatically either. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon, unless their incentives change.

(We can say exactly the same thing about man-made stuff optimized for a specific purpose, like stock photography, clickbait titles or industrial food: they aren't stereotypical because their creator lacks the skill to make them otherwise, they are like that because that's what works best).

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#12

Post by teeray »

The problems are simply too great if an LLM detector has any false positives at all. Imagine how soul-crushing writing an entire dissertation by hand and having it rejected because some “good enough” LLM detector decides you write too much like an AI.

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#13

Post by empath75 »

stymaar wrote: post #11
akersten wrote: post #8

Text is simply not information dense enough to be able to decode some arbitrary signal of provenance from it. Sure you might be able to detect today's tells (particular sentence structures preferred by Claude, phrases, etc) to get you some arbitrary chance percentage it was machine generated, but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Images, absolutely, there are…

> but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Hard disagree. LLMs (especially base ones, that only received pre-training) can produce output that is undistinguishable from human writing (because that's what they were trained to do). But commercial chat models are specifically tuned in a way that maximizes user engagement. It's that specific tuning that is very easy…

It does mean that this will have a drift problem if it's just trained on the idiosyncrasies of model fine tuning. That's fine! But it is something to be aware of.

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#14

Post by gleenn »

I think the fundamental problem is that training current SOTA AI models is very expensive. If a simple "classical" model can detect them, presumably at much lower algorithmic cost, then why wouldn't the model trainers use these same tools to feed back into their models to improve them at low cost to make them better? It's an arms race. Any cheap pattern can and presumably will be used to retrain if it becomes and effective way to catch AI.

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#15

Post by zmjone2992 »

akersten wrote: post #8

Text is simply not information dense enough to be able to decode some arbitrary signal of provenance from it. Sure you might be able to detect today's tells (particular sentence structures preferred by Claude, phrases, etc) to get you some arbitrary chance percentage it was machine generated, but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Images, absolutely, there are…

i think one thing overlooked by this perspective is that many of a detectors adversaries are not that sophisticated. so despite this i think it is a useful thing to try to do. particularly when people are trying to do fraud which will often having to use abliterated models and generally trying to be as economical in their efforts

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#16

Post by ravenstine »

stymaar wrote: post #11
akersten wrote: post #8

Text is simply not information dense enough to be able to decode some arbitrary signal of provenance from it. Sure you might be able to detect today's tells (particular sentence structures preferred by Claude, phrases, etc) to get you some arbitrary chance percentage it was machine generated, but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Images, absolutely, there are…

> but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Hard disagree. LLMs (especially base ones, that only received pre-training) can produce output that is undistinguishable from human writing (because that's what they were trained to do). But commercial chat models are specifically tuned in a way that maximizes user engagement. It's that specific tuning that is very easy…

They're also designed to not offend anybody, so their output tends to be very bland even compared to the most milquetoast of human beings. I was only surprised once when ChatGPT responded with an enthusiastic "hell yes" seemingly organically, but 99.9% of the time these AI services clearly are instructed and trained to provide flavorless word vomit. I don't think there's a technical reason why an LLM couldn't produce totally convincing output, but internet grifters don't need to go through that trouble. It's like how most phone, email, and social media scams come off as completely transparent to most of us, but that's the whole point; we're not the target audience of the scams. Readers looking for substance, nuance, and real opinions aren't going to notice if something with written by an LLM – unless there are some cliche punctuation tells.

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#17

Post by cyanydeez »

akersten wrote: post #8

Text is simply not information dense enough to be able to decode some arbitrary signal of provenance from it. Sure you might be able to detect today's tells (particular sentence structures preferred by Claude, phrases, etc) to get you some arbitrary chance percentage it was machine generated, but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Images, absolutely, there are…

Sure it is; we do it all the time, and then we modify each other's etc, etc; english we speak today was spoke yesterday waspake the same in yesteryears; we have no trouble dating english or other languages to a time.

A better argument is people themselves are just too influenced by reading that they'll sound like LLMs in a couple of years.

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#18

Post by driverdan »

akersten wrote: post #8

Text is simply not information dense enough to be able to decode some arbitrary signal of provenance from it. Sure you might be able to detect today's tells (particular sentence structures preferred by Claude, phrases, etc) to get you some arbitrary chance percentage it was machine generated, but it's a bad fiction to perpetuate that any of this is anything more than tarot card reading. Images, absolutely, there are…

There are two problems, false positives and changing the LLM's pattern.

It's really easy to have a false positive and false positives can be very harmful if the person using the detector isn't aware of that risk.

It's also very easy to change the pattern of LLM output. You can provide basic prompting that will significantly change the structure of the output. For example, having it utilize the Wikipedia article on signs of AI writing and avoid everything it describes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_AI_writing

Re: Detecting LLM-Generated Texts with “Classical” Machine Learning

#20

Post by Retric »

gleenn wrote: post #14

I think the fundamental problem is that training current SOTA AI models is very expensive. If a simple "classical" model can detect them, presumably at much lower algorithmic cost, then why wouldn't the model trainers use these same tools to feed back into their models to improve them at low cost to make them better? It's an arms race. Any cheap pattern can and presumably will be used to retrain if it becomes and eff…

It’s an arms race where the AI companies are at an extreme disadvantage due to relative training costs.
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