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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#191

Post by computerex »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #151
dghlsakjg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tokenizers also matter. Anthropics tokenizers will encode the same piece of text at a way higher token count than OpenAi, for example. That said, Kimi is competing against GLM in my mind, and GLM 5.2 is less than 1/3 the price.

GLM is actually quite expensive in actual practice because it's not very token efficient. I've yet to find a way to run it on a monthly sub reliably for cheaper than Codex. Neuralwatt was cheap (but slow) but they cranked their price. Ollama monthly sub is speedy but doesn't offer a lot of quota. Right now unless you're paying by the token, there's no cost based reason to use the open weight models for daily coding w…

I know GLM is relatively expensive and so is Kimi, in comparison to those DeepSeek V4 pro and flash are a godsend and are absolutely good value.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#193

Post by mdasen »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #23
Tiberium wrote: post #2

More details: - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat-k3 1M context, pricing is $3/$15 for 1M tokens (cache $0.3), which is extremely high for a Chinese open-weight model, but if it's truly competitive with most of the current frontier and is only behind Fable/Sol, the pricing is justified. This is 1:1 pricing of Anthropic's Sonnet series (except Sonnet 5…

Tokenizers also matter. Anthropics tokenizers will encode the same piece of text at a way higher token count than OpenAi, for example. That said, Kimi is competing against GLM in my mind, and GLM 5.2 is less than 1/3 the price.

It also depends on how many tokens it needs to burn through to accomplish something.

At this point, I always look at things like Artificial Analysis' total cost to run their tests. It'll take into consideration the cost of tokens, how many tokens it burns through, and how effectively it uses caching (and the price of that caching).

If a model "costs the same" but its reasoning ends up going through a ton more tokens, it doesn't really cost the same in real world usage.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#194

Post by antonyt »

paxys wrote: post #50
ekojs wrote: post #37

> In our evaluations, Kimi K3 delivers frontier-level performance. Among the models tested, its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol. For the complete benchmark results, see our tech blog. The full model weights of Kimi K3 will be released in the coming days. More details on the architecture, training, and evaluation will be published together with the Kimi K3 technical report. > K…

> its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol Pretty sure ranking “second” to two others means ranking third.

Charitably, you could read this as "its overall intelligence [is in a class that] ranks second only to [that of]..."

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#195

Post by sm-silversight »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #173

On the first try, Kimi K3 just found the source of a bug that Fable 5 hasn't been able to pinpoint in multiple attempts. It's just one anecdote, and I haven't used K3 much yet, but so far it's looking extremely promising.

How do you use kimi for agentic tasks? I'm used to claude code & codex extensions for vs code, but recently switched to codex cli w/ vim keybinds. Does something like that exist for openrouter?

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#198

Post by mark_l_watson »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #151
dghlsakjg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tokenizers also matter. Anthropics tokenizers will encode the same piece of text at a way higher token count than OpenAi, for example. That said, Kimi is competing against GLM in my mind, and GLM 5.2 is less than 1/3 the price.

GLM is actually quite expensive in actual practice because it's not very token efficient. I've yet to find a way to run it on a monthly sub reliably for cheaper than Codex. Neuralwatt was cheap (but slow) but they cranked their price. Ollama monthly sub is speedy but doesn't offer a lot of quota. Right now unless you're paying by the token, there's no cost based reason to use the open weight models for daily coding w…

re:

> Right now unless you're paying by the token, there's no cost based reason to use the open weight models for daily coding work because the monthly coding plans from Anthropic and OpenAI are a better deal.

Maybe. I am on a $20/month Anthropic subscription this month but I also use Claude Code frequently with Deepseek v4 flash and pro, GML5.2. For simple work Deepseek v4 flash is so nice because it is fast.

What you say is true however, the US hyper-scalers are still (desperately?) subsidizing subscriptions for market share to boost there valuations.

I really want to see AI inference costs approach zero, and I think I just need to wait a few years to see that.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#199

Post by Dibes »

tao_oat wrote: post #114
xyzsparetimexyz wrote: post #68

Any updated Pareto frontier graphs? https://paraplouis.github.io/llm-pareto-frontier/ is quite out of date now.

I generally rely on LMArena for this: https://arena.ai/leaderboard/code/webdev/pareto But it does take some days after model release before they collect enough data.

Odd that open AI models aren't on that graph but are on the rankings! Must be a data lag issue?

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#200

Post by InsideOutSanta »

sm-silversight wrote: post #195
InsideOutSanta wrote: post #173

On the first try, Kimi K3 just found the source of a bug that Fable 5 hasn't been able to pinpoint in multiple attempts. It's just one anecdote, and I haven't used K3 much yet, but so far it's looking extremely promising.

How do you use kimi for agentic tasks? I'm used to claude code & codex extensions for vs code, but recently switched to codex cli w/ vim keybinds. Does something like that exist for openrouter?

I use everything except for Anthropic's models in opencode.
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