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Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

schweizerbart.de

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Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#101

Post by maxhille »

nkmnz wrote: post #98
maxhille wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the Fukushima disaster and US polluted ground water are Russian propaganda for you?

What about the >100.000 Ukrainians killed with bombs and bullets paid for by German energy policy?

Note that I won't even write answers to all the other commenters telling me that nuclear power plants are great (they are not). I will answer you because my reply was about your comment on Russian propaganda:

1. Angela Merkel and her conservative/center coalition shut down the NPPs as a direct response to the Fukushima disaster. The NPPs in Germany were never really important (something like 10% of electricity IIRC).

2. No one in Germany even knew about fracking until we learned that communities in the US now had poisoned ground water because of it. The whole thing was instantly dead forever in Germany. Yes of course the same idiots who want NPPs back also say we should do fracking, but I don't think any of that will ever happen.

So I did not want to discuss whether these decisions were wrong or not, just wanted to point out that making Russian propaganda the reason for this is a far stretch.

Regarding your point about German/European money paying for Russian bombs: You are absolutely right and it is shameful. We should have pulled the plug on Russia 2014. Do note though that Germany had Russian fossils since like the 70`s as part of ensuring peace and transformation through trade, which yes - did not work out so well in the end.

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#103

Post by M95D »

FinnKuhn wrote: post #42
IceHegel wrote: post #16

I have always wondered about the origins of the anti nuclear opinion of Germans. It has Cold War origins to be sure, but what kind? I suspect American intelligence has been supporting the anti nuclear movement for some time, for non-proliferation reasons - and not just in Germany. I certainly would be, if I ran the State Department.

Nowadays it is mostly two things. The 1st reason is nuclear waste. Germany is more densely populated than the US so you can't store it far away from humans. The solution tried before was to just store it deep underground. Turns out that might even be worse than storing it on the surface as it turned out and it has been a total disaster (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine ). There have been more cancer cas…

They stored nuclear waste in a salt mine? OMG!

But I'm not against nuclear power. Even with the increasted cancer rates, solar and wind are much more deadly - many workers die by falling off the roof.

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#104

Post by toasty228 »

tapoxi wrote: post #75
toasty228 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to sound like an ass but that's your typical HNer hot take on a topic they don't know anything about (which is 99% of topics outside of tech). I know that I don't know jack shit about the topic, but I can already tell you that if you do what you describe you'll quickly learn about why grids have frequencies, what generate these frequencies, and what happens when they drift.

Yeah that's what an inverter does, the "tie them to the grid" part. Every solar system has them, and they can islanding or not.

> Yeah that's what an inverter does

No, that's not what an "inverter" does, not most inverters at least, you need grid forming inverters and batteries for that... which is my whole point, you don't just take them out of the crate and plug them in the grid, that only works if most of the grid is powered by legacy plants stabilising it.

Do you describe nuclear power plants as "just putting two rocks next to each other and plugging them in the grid"

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#105

Post by tapoxi »

toasty228 wrote: post #104
tapoxi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's what an inverter does, the "tie them to the grid" part. Every solar system has them, and they can islanding or not.

> Yeah that's what an inverter does No, that's not what an "inverter" does, not most inverters at least, you need grid forming inverters and batteries for that... which is my whole point, you don't just take them out of the crate and plug them in the grid, that only works if most of the grid is powered by legacy plants stabilising it. Do you describe nuclear power plants as "just putting two rocks next to each other…

You don't need a grid forming inverter to re-synchronize with the grid, you only need a grid forming inverter if you need a complete cold start or to support a grid island.

In the context of our discussion, adding more capacity, that's exactly what's needed here. We're not replacing 100% of energy sources with solar, we are replacing energy sources with _renewables_ which is hydro, solar, wind, arguably nuclear as well.

Even extending your argument to "well we need to only have solar" then you need a grid forming inverter with batteries. That's not a massive increase in complexity or time and supports the "just tie them to the grid" statement.

Trying to use the analogy of a nuclear power plant, which requires 10-15 years (including permitting), is ridiculous. A solar plant is 2-5 (including permitting) - by comparison.

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#106

Post by trencedamp »

mDyJzDPmBdG wrote: post #89
trencedamp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is literally about geothermal and all people can talk about is nuclear, solar. Why aren't we building geothermal energy plants everywhere?

What? For the same reason we don't build hydro plants everywhere, they depend on local conditions and all best spots are already used. Iceland can access geothermal power in entire country so they did.

I take your point that they rely on local conditions, but those conditions are certainly not as restrictive as for hydro.

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#107

Post by nkmnz »

maxhille wrote: post #101
nkmnz wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the >100.000 Ukrainians killed with bombs and bullets paid for by German energy policy?

Note that I won't even write answers to all the other commenters telling me that nuclear power plants are great (they are not). I will answer you because my reply was about your comment on Russian propaganda: 1. Angela Merkel and her conservative/center coalition shut down the NPPs as a direct response to the Fukushima disaster. The NPPs in Germany were never really important (something like 10% of electricity IIRC).…

So at least we can agree that Germany’s reliance on Russian gas has been far deadlier than all nuclear and fracking accidents combined.

Regarding your arguments:

ad 1: This happened only because public opinion had been shaped by the movements mentioned in my previous comment for the last 40 to 50 years. Otherwise, how would you explain the fact that Fukushima did not have the same effect on policy or public opinion in any of the roughly 30 other countries using nuclear power — not even in Japan? Are Germans that much more intelligent than the French, Japanese, or Finns?

ad 2: That is somewhat ironic, considering that fracking has been taking place in Germany since the 1960s.

You should stop relying on such low-resolution thinking when discussing a complex issue like German energy policy.

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#108

Post by leonidasrup »

froh42 wrote: post #10
lantry wrote: post #4

Title makes it sound like a new method of generating energy was discovered, but really the article is about using geothermal in a new location. > The development of medium-deep (>400 m) and deep geothermal reservoirs (> 1,500 m) could be a partial solution to provide renewable heat to single buildings, residential or commercial neighbourhoods, or districts of the city of Aachen via the existing district heating netwo…

Ta-daa. That happens. They found some new geothermal source in Munich as well after I moved into the place I'm in now. It turned out it was very viable. Nowadays the heat in my apartment is mainly geothermal (The district heating network in my neighborhood has been converted to geothermal energy over the past 10 years.)

Munich sits on a massive geothermal aquifer system (the Molasse Basin)

"Medium-deep geothermal resources in the Molasse Basin: A geological, techno-economic, and ecological study of large-scale heat pump integration"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096014812...

Tapping a geothermal aquifer system is much easier than to get useful quantities of heat from dry rock, because in most places the thermal conductivity of rock is very low.

"The enthusiasm in the research community is justified by the vast extent of the energy supply and the low environmental impact of the method, however significant breakthroughs will be required to make this a commercial energy resource."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dry_rock_geothermal_energy

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#109

Post by leonidasrup »

fmajid wrote: post #72
IceHegel wrote: post #16

I have always wondered about the origins of the anti nuclear opinion of Germans. It has Cold War origins to be sure, but what kind? I suspect American intelligence has been supporting the anti nuclear movement for some time, for non-proliferation reasons - and not just in Germany. I certainly would be, if I ran the State Department.

The Soviets are a more likely culprit, as then just like now most of their revenues came from oil and gas exports. They secretly supported the Rote Armee Fraktion (Baader-Meinhof) terrorists via the Stasi, so funding the Greens to stymie intermediate range ballistic missile deployments in Germany, with securing hydrocarbon sales as a cherry on top, would not at all be out of character. Back when I was in high school…

Investing enough into renewables combined with grid scale storage to cover a prolonged Dunkelflaute is very expensive, therefor German government is investing in new gas-fired power plants with capacity of 11 GW, with state subsidies.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/germany-passes-law-subs...

Even a weak long Dunkelflaute can happen:

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/prolonged-dunkelflaute-...

Re: Germany maybe found a new source of renewable energy

#110

Post by maxhille »

nkmnz wrote: post #107
maxhille wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that I won't even write answers to all the other commenters telling me that nuclear power plants are great (they are not). I will answer you because my reply was about your comment on Russian propaganda: 1. Angela Merkel and her conservative/center coalition shut down the NPPs as a direct response to the Fukushima disaster. The NPPs in Germany were never really important (something like 10% of electricity IIRC).…

So at least we can agree that Germany’s reliance on Russian gas has been far deadlier than all nuclear and fracking accidents combined. Regarding your arguments: ad 1: This happened only because public opinion had been shaped by the movements mentioned in my previous comment for the last 40 to 50 years. Otherwise, how would you explain the fact that Fukushima did not have the same effect on policy or public opinion i…

> You should stop relying on such low-resolution thinking when discussing a complex issue like German energy policy.

It is funny that you are criticizing my ability to reason when you are not even able to (in two comments now) even address the (as explicitly stated in my personal reply to you) single point I was making.

> This happened only because public opinion had been shaped by the movements mentioned in my previous comment for the last 40 to 50 years.

Are you implying that 1986 was a Russian propaganda plot? What/who do you mean with "movements"?

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