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The Folly of Scientism

thenewatlantis.com

21–30 of 139 posts

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#21

A reply under the title of "The folly of 'The folly of scientism'" by Professor Jerry Coyne of the University of Chicago, who frequently reads and comments on issues related to the philosophy of science: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/the-folly... ". . . . Hughes is an evolutionary biologist with wide-ranging interests, and I’ve really liked some of his papers." . . . . "The big problem with Hughe…

Wonder if Coyne realizes the circular and non-responsive nature of his reply.

To rephrase this, science is the only thing we know. Show me something that's not science that we know. Of course, you can't. You've given yourself the answer before you begin to ask the question.

Effective science and humility have to go hand-in-hand. Otherwise you're just creating a new religion with the rubric "science" stuck on it.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#22
"Likewise, many cosmologists have articulated various forms of what is known as the “anthropic principle” — that is, the observation that the basic laws of the universe seem to be “fine-tuned” in such a way as to be favorable to life, including human life."

Simple answers to this: (a) we have far too few examples of life (on a galactic scale) to gauge the actual "Goldilock" range for life suitability, and (b) we have a documented tendency to assume agency even in its manifest absence, which renders all such anthropomorphic impressions highly suspect.

"In that case, we are still left without ultimate explanations as to why that universe exists or has the characteristics it does."

Begs the question of whether "why" even matters at such a scale. Like the "then what created god?" question, the chain must either stop somewhere or recede infinitely to a "bad question" asymptote.

"For a complete evolutionary account of a phenomenon, it is not enough to construct a story about how the trait might have evolved in response to a given selection pressure; rather, one must provide some sort of evidence that it really did so evolve."

Apply that same criteria to all other non-evolutionary explanations, then come back with their relative measures of predictive value. Who wins that tournament of efficacy?

"For comparison, we know a quite a lot about the physiology of digestion, and we are able to describe in great detail the physiological differences between the digestive system of a person who is starving and that of a person who has just eaten a satisfying and nutritionally balanced meal. But this knowledge contributes little to solving world hunger."

The discovery and implementation of a system that makes hunger more objective, for example, would help address work hunger by freeing up overeaten food for those in greater need. Unimpressed.

"Harris seems to think that free will is an illusion but also that our decisions are really driven by thoughts that arise unbidden in our brains. He does not explain the origin of these thoughts nor how their origin relates to moral choices."

What about the receipt of controlling, "unexplained" "unbidden thoughts" contracts a disbelief in free will? The claim that Harris leaves them "unexplained" or unrelated to moral choices speaks more to the author's ignorance of Harris's work than anything else.

"This view [emphasizing the impact of genes and circumstance on the frequency of "moral behavior"] undermines the possibility of happiness and moral behavior for those who are dealt a bad hand, and so does more to degrade than uplift at the individual level."

Try telling that to had their "moral" capacity demonstrably inhibited by damage to their frontal lobes.

Any hope of addressing such organic damage to impulse control lies in the advancement of neuroscience, which might provide an actual fix.

The alternative equates to expecting a computer user to search online for their own answer as to why their Internet connection is down.

"Continued insistence on the universal competence of science will serve only to undermine the credibility of science as a whole. The ultimate outcome will be an increase of radical skepticism that questions the ability of science to address even the questions legitimately within its sphere of competence."

A straw-man, then begging the question. Given how much we know of the foibles of human cognition, perception, and recollection, the responsibility for taking something out of the sphere of science lies with those who would attempt the removal. Best of luck doing so without hard data, i.e. science, though.

tl;dr: a biologist reaches far outside her area of experience (and into, e.g., neuroscience) in order to try and fault the scientists actually in those fields for finding scientific answers to once-philosophical questions in their own fields. That, and the author's ultimate position boils down to an argument from consequence.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#23
post #2

This essay should be required reading for anyone who thinks science is or should be the only legitimate way of understanding the world. For more information, I strongly recommend: "Naturalism and the Human Condition: Against scientism" by Frederick A. Olafson and "Scientism" by Tom Sorell

I wouldn't agree; this essay takes few examples of bad or half-baked science (which are disputed even among scientists, in specific fields such as behavioral ecology and evo. psychology, and behavioral neuroscience) and generalizes to all of science.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#24
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that mean? I intuit that your program has bugs, therefore it has bugs? I intuit that there is an alien race living on Mars that is able to disguise itself as red rocks? I do not see how intuition gives you anything other than -- maybe, and only maybe -- a smaller set of hypotheses to test scientifically.

Your inability to fit it into your belief system is not my problem.

If that is the strongest argument you can make, I think you've said all that needs to be said about intuition.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#25
post #4
post #2

This essay should be required reading for anyone who thinks science is or should be the only legitimate way of understanding the world. For more information, I strongly recommend: "Naturalism and the Human Condition: Against scientism" by Frederick A. Olafson and "Scientism" by Tom Sorell

What are some [legitimate] examples of non-science ways of understanding the world?

The answers that you'll receive won't be supported by rational thought or evidence. If they were, it'd be scientism.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name one question for which a scientific answer no matter how inadequate was once the best, but for which now a philosophical or religious one is the best one?

Consciousness, experience, spontaneity, 'the present moment'.. There's a very good book on this called "The Wisdom Of Insecurity" by Alan Watts. It's very short and definitely worth a read if this question interests you.

Consciousness, experience or the present moment are not a question. What about these? What in particular about them is answered better (i.e. more correctly or truthfully) by non-scientific answers. What answer can be satisfying at all if it is not tested at all? Or if it does not give correct predictions.

Feeling better about something or wishing it were so are not good enough criteria in my mind. Finding consolation in illusion is not a worthy goal either.

All questions are scientific questions. What is right, what is moral or what we should do follows from what is true. Science happens to be the only sure way to discover what is true on the other hand. All other methods fail us.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your inability to fit it into your belief system is not my problem.

If that is the strongest argument you can make, I think you've said all that needs to be said about intuition.

Hehe, I'm not trying to convince you. I suppose I shouldn't be posting, then.

Really, I'm not certain you would be convinced even if I did a better job, though. All I'm really looking for is less of a skeptical "explain it to me in terms of science" viewpoint, and more of a "huh, interesting" response. I've never seen someone even try to work with me when discussing these things. It's always shut down so they can claim their Internet points.

Not intellectually engaging in the slightest.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#29
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some [legitimate] examples of non-science ways of understanding the world?

Consciousness/experience.

How, specifically?

Given the incredible variance in available descriptions of "the conscious experience", I would posit that "consciousness" itself exists only as a mental grouping and nothing distinct.

As an exercise: explain what exactly constitutes a "car", including the point where such an item officially "stops being a car" during the process of disassembly. Show your work.

Re: The Folly of Scientism

#30
For too long, the vast majority of scientists have kept silent, keenly aware of the limitation of their knowledge, and leaving it to idiots (e.g. Bill O'Reilly's nobody can explain the tides...) to make sweeping and completely false statements. We don't have all the answers yet (and never will) but that should not stop scientists from voicing their opinion more vocally and more frequently.
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