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Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

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Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#41

Post by helix278 »

I write all production code by hand, it's the only way I'm sure I know what the code does. Moreover, when the problem space or code base is more complex, it is necessary to keep in touch with reality and test your understanding by writing the code.

I see colleagues using LLMs more and more, and the number of bugs found by QA is increasing dramatically, because the LLM was not thorough enough and the developer (now reviewer I guess) missed the edge cases too because the code, tests and comments looked convincing.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#42

Post by Jemaclus »

meristohm wrote: post #25
Jemaclus wrote: post #2

It's like any other tool. Use it when you need it. We don't insist that HVAC installers use hand-powered drills to "feel closer to the work," but we also don't insist that they use battery-powered drills and impact drivers on every single task. We don't insist that a chef use a Vitamix blender to chop a single onion when a couple seconds with a sharp knife will do, but we certainly wouldn't only use a sharp knife to…

...and it's fine to not use the loud, vibrating power saw and instead take some extra time to use a handsaw, and thus get more practiced at it. It's fine to hire movers, but sometimes they end up damaging stuff. My solution is have a lot less stuff, and move it myself. I increasingly have more respect for the Amish community one of my relatives lives near, at least in terms of their considered, intentional limits set…

Yes, exactly.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#43

Post by Jemaclus »

tripleee wrote: post #35
Jemaclus wrote: post #2

It's like any other tool. Use it when you need it. We don't insist that HVAC installers use hand-powered drills to "feel closer to the work," but we also don't insist that they use battery-powered drills and impact drivers on every single task. We don't insist that a chef use a Vitamix blender to chop a single onion when a couple seconds with a sharp knife will do, but we certainly wouldn't only use a sharp knife to…

Imagine a carpenter needed to be proficient in hand-saws to use their chainsaw well, and using their chainsaw required knowing details about the wood they were working with, in only the way using a hand-saw gave. Makes it a littttttle more complicated.

Conversely, imagine only requiring carpenters to know how to use a chainsaw.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#44

Post by Jemaclus »

WCSTombs wrote: post #29
Jemaclus wrote: post #2

It's like any other tool. Use it when you need it. We don't insist that HVAC installers use hand-powered drills to "feel closer to the work," but we also don't insist that they use battery-powered drills and impact drivers on every single task. We don't insist that a chef use a Vitamix blender to chop a single onion when a couple seconds with a sharp knife will do, but we certainly wouldn't only use a sharp knife to…

The problem with this analogy is an LLM isn't very much like a "tool" at all. - In cases of practical relevance, you pay a recurring fee to keep using it - not very tool-like. - Rather than doing a predictable action in response to user inputs, you give it imprecise instructions and it does something unpredictable but vaguely correct in response, which then must be thoroughly inspected. - In cases of practical releva…

Sure. But this is a little pedantic, no?

Let's go with your analogy: you would hire contractors to build a house, but not to put an IKEA bookshelf together. You would hire a professional chef to cook a five course meal, but not to heat up pop tarts. You would hire a surgeon to operate on your brain, but not to prescribe advil.

The point is that it's one of many things (tools, contractors, whatever) in your arsenal, and you use whichever one you need. You don't automatically reach for the surgeon or the chef or the contractor.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#45

Post by WCSTombs »

Jemaclus wrote: post #44
WCSTombs wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this analogy is an LLM isn't very much like a "tool" at all. - In cases of practical relevance, you pay a recurring fee to keep using it - not very tool-like. - Rather than doing a predictable action in response to user inputs, you give it imprecise instructions and it does something unpredictable but vaguely correct in response, which then must be thoroughly inspected. - In cases of practical releva…

Sure. But this is a little pedantic, no? Let's go with your analogy: you would hire contractors to build a house, but not to put an IKEA bookshelf together. You would hire a professional chef to cook a five course meal, but not to heat up pop tarts. You would hire a surgeon to operate on your brain, but not to prescribe advil. The point is that it's one of many things (tools, contractors, whatever) in your arsenal, a…

But the thing is, in this analogy, we are the chef, surgeon, or builder. We're the ones other people look for when they can't do the thing by themselves (in this case, writing software).

Neither my analogy or yours is exact, but it's really worth thinking about.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#46

Post by Jemaclus »

WCSTombs wrote: post #45
Jemaclus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But this is a little pedantic, no? Let's go with your analogy: you would hire contractors to build a house, but not to put an IKEA bookshelf together. You would hire a professional chef to cook a five course meal, but not to heat up pop tarts. You would hire a surgeon to operate on your brain, but not to prescribe advil. The point is that it's one of many things (tools, contractors, whatever) in your arsenal, a…

But the thing is, in this analogy, we are the chef, surgeon, or builder. We're the ones other people look for when they can't do the thing by themselves (in this case, writing software). Neither my analogy or yours is exact, but it's really worth thinking about.

Right. But OP's question isn't "do you need a chef?" the question OP posed is more akin to "why should chefs use knives when they have blenders?" or "why should I build an IKEA bookshelf myself when I can hire a contractor to build a house?"

Because they're two different tools and situations.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#47

Post by mahogany »

Jemaclus wrote: post #2

It's like any other tool. Use it when you need it. We don't insist that HVAC installers use hand-powered drills to "feel closer to the work," but we also don't insist that they use battery-powered drills and impact drivers on every single task. We don't insist that a chef use a Vitamix blender to chop a single onion when a couple seconds with a sharp knife will do, but we certainly wouldn't only use a sharp knife to…

You may be right but it seems like a different type of tool when it does the thinking for you. I feel like your analogy is closer to a good autocomplete rather than an agentic LLM loop. Agents feel like a genuinely different technology.

Maybe it’s more like an HVAC installer has a tool which tells them where to position the furnace. After many years, will they forget why the furnace should go there? Or maybe it’s like the HVAC installer has a tool which auto attaches the pipes. Hopefully it attached cold to cold and hot to hot, but the HVAC installer hasn’t had to do this in a while so they kind of forgot how to do it manually, and so will just trust the tool.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#48

Post by SmolSpideritito »

meristohm wrote: post #25
Jemaclus wrote: post #2

It's like any other tool. Use it when you need it. We don't insist that HVAC installers use hand-powered drills to "feel closer to the work," but we also don't insist that they use battery-powered drills and impact drivers on every single task. We don't insist that a chef use a Vitamix blender to chop a single onion when a couple seconds with a sharp knife will do, but we certainly wouldn't only use a sharp knife to…

...and it's fine to not use the loud, vibrating power saw and instead take some extra time to use a handsaw, and thus get more practiced at it. It's fine to hire movers, but sometimes they end up damaging stuff. My solution is have a lot less stuff, and move it myself. I increasingly have more respect for the Amish community one of my relatives lives near, at least in terms of their considered, intentional limits set…

This is a great frame. Can I ask (and I mean this with good faith, because I've had this problem for the longest time now) how do you deal with employers or corporations who demand the absolute maximum output every second of every day, forcing you to use the proverbial loud, vibrating power saw to the point that you feel terrified to even look at the handsaw?

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#49

Post by Jemaclus »

SmolSpideritito wrote: post #48
meristohm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and it's fine to not use the loud, vibrating power saw and instead take some extra time to use a handsaw, and thus get more practiced at it. It's fine to hire movers, but sometimes they end up damaging stuff. My solution is have a lot less stuff, and move it myself. I increasingly have more respect for the Amish community one of my relatives lives near, at least in terms of their considered, intentional limits set…

This is a great frame. Can I ask (and I mean this with good faith, because I've had this problem for the longest time now) how do you deal with employers or corporations who demand the absolute maximum output every second of every day, forcing you to use the proverbial loud, vibrating power saw to the point that you feel terrified to even look at the handsaw?

The question is what your tolerance to this kind of thing is. If the job is fundamentally changing underneath you, then you need to ask yourself if this is still a job you want to keep. If the answer is no, then you find another one. If you think you can still do it the way your employer is demanding, then stick around.

The sad truth is that the job is changing, and that means we need to change, too. That _doesn't_ mean we need the power saw 100% of the time, but it does mean we need to be very very proficient at it or we'll be left behind.

Re: Ask HN: Does it still make sense to write code by hand?

#50

Post by dudleyjones »

Not realy, using AI helper is saving time and no one will blame you for this. Today AI is our new reality and it will be self-developed in the future and become absolutely normal. Just imagine is such websites like https://maxijournal.com would be hand-made, how much time it would take for an owner to grow the website and how he could compete with others who develop such websites with AI? I can compare it with a stick-shift. Since there is an automatic transmission what good is to use a manual one, and who would blame?
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