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Towards a harness that can do anything

eardatasci.github.io

71–80 of 121 posts

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#71
>I've been thinking about how to free LLMs from the chat pane for a few years now.

LLM's are language models, you can absolutely control them with bash scripts and deterministic code, there are plenty of frameworks that already do that, and a great engineer will use them, but LLMS are at their most powerful when a user can give the agent an input and the model can run its ReAct loop. Wanting to free an LLM from a chat pane is like wanting to free email from the thread model, or closer, removing the chat window to DM a friend or colleague.

>what can we learn from the before-fore times, when people used to actually write code?

Treat an agent like a human writing code. Give them the best context, give them the best tools. This is why harnesses are overly complicated, because they need to guide the model through the context and tools it has available in a way that is efficient. A good harness is not incompatible with the Unix philosphy, it can do one thing well (interfacing with LLMs and giving them access to filesystems and compute), it will heavily use bash, stringing commands together with the cli tools that it knows (it's context) that it has, and and LLM will naturally handle text streams because that is what it does best.

>Everything is a File

If you want things to be deterministic why resort to plaintext? Wouldn't we want as much as possible to be typed? A computer can parse json which is what you want if you are trying to make your harness as deterministic as possible.

>It watches our FS for changes with cursors on textfiles,

Wow. What is your monthly token bill? I don't know how that would use less tokens than a 30 minute heartbeat, which as you mention will already use a lot of tokens. Why not have it notify your agent after a certain amount of files have been changed, or certain files you deem important?

It seems like this user works at a 12 week programmer retreat and seems to post their cohort's blog posts about the projects they work on.

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#74

I kind of have a different idea of agents. I totally believe in a deterministic scaffold but I really think that an agent should be as deterministic as possible - the more code, the better. Think of a typical loop we may ask of Claude Code today (assume we are not using TDD): run some test suite with fail fast mode, diagnose if the failure is due to recent feature changes (pass reference to backend/frontend, github i…

100% agree that the more deterministic code the better up to the limit where you need the LLM's ability to be non-deterministic to kick in. There is this ACM blog post called "Manual Work is a Bug" [0] that was originally written to help humans automate processes using code. I find it just as applicable today as when it was written. You and the LLM look at what has to be done and then figure out the scripts/tools to…

I was unsuccessful in area of automation because of different issue.

By trade I am a .Net software developer so as a lot of people would imagine — I was not able to accept a script that wouldn’t be reusable and flexible, basically over engineered.

I do quite some devops so I finally had to accept the fact that I can write simple script with hardcoded values that will live on a server (where I can copy paste and change values to meet other server) and most likely I will not have to look at that script for years as it will be running with cron doing its job without an issue.

Over engineered scripts designed from get go always required debugging from time to time so lots of time I was just doing stuff manually to make it quicker.

So I started winning when I accepted first script can be really simple and when needed I can move it to be parametrized but if not it will just keep doing it's job there on the server.

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#75
post #66

I kind of have a different idea of agents. I totally believe in a deterministic scaffold but I really think that an agent should be as deterministic as possible - the more code, the better. Think of a typical loop we may ask of Claude Code today (assume we are not using TDD): run some test suite with fail fast mode, diagnose if the failure is due to recent feature changes (pass reference to backend/frontend, github i…

I believe there should be easy ways to move logic between prompts and code in a smooth ways. Moving from prompts to code is for getting deterministic, fast, well defined and cheap execution - the other way is when you want to quickly extend your system or when you want to relax a pre-condition (which is extending if you look into it deeply). There are some inroads into this vision - but I haven't seen anything build…

The idea of morphing prompts to code and back is revolutionary.

You may want to read earlier discussions https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48881112 And https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48051562

I

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#76
post #75
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there should be easy ways to move logic between prompts and code in a smooth ways. Moving from prompts to code is for getting deterministic, fast, well defined and cheap execution - the other way is when you want to quickly extend your system or when you want to relax a pre-condition (which is extending if you look into it deeply). There are some inroads into this vision - but I haven't seen anything build…

The idea of morphing prompts to code and back is revolutionary. You may want to read earlier discussions https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48881112 And https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48051562 I

awww for a second I thought you were maybe talking about something like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48905887

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#77
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree that the more deterministic code the better up to the limit where you need the LLM's ability to be non-deterministic to kick in. There is this ACM blog post called "Manual Work is a Bug" [0] that was originally written to help humans automate processes using code. I find it just as applicable today as when it was written. You and the LLM look at what has to be done and then figure out the scripts/tools to…

I was unsuccessful in area of automation because of different issue. By trade I am a .Net software developer so as a lot of people would imagine — I was not able to accept a script that wouldn’t be reusable and flexible, basically over engineered. I do quite some devops so I finally had to accept the fact that I can write simple script with hardcoded values that will live on a server (where I can copy paste and chang…

There is an idea I have been enjoying called WET, Write Everything Twice. Basic idea is you should only make things more general and parameterized if you need to write it a third time.

The upshot of this is you actually have a much better understanding of the different way your script needs to work if you're adapting it for a third use instance.

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#78
post #75
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there should be easy ways to move logic between prompts and code in a smooth ways. Moving from prompts to code is for getting deterministic, fast, well defined and cheap execution - the other way is when you want to quickly extend your system or when you want to relax a pre-condition (which is extending if you look into it deeply). There are some inroads into this vision - but I haven't seen anything build…

The idea of morphing prompts to code and back is revolutionary. You may want to read earlier discussions https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48881112 And https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48051562 I

I am not sure if this is sarcasm - but just in case - https://github.com/sshwarts/skillscript does not offer a unified namespace for functions and prompts (agents) like https://github.com/zby/llm-do (currently in suspended development). There are now also the 'dynamic workflows' in Claude Code that are pretty interesting approach - they are like a compiled prompt in many aspects.

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#79

This post is chock-full of soft ideas. They make no meaningful steps toward "a harness that can do anything". The suggestion is to replace a small node application with specific tooling, with a vm "to give it more capabilities". This is what Agent sandboxes are, already. Making the sandbox the harness, doesn't achieve a concrete goal.

I find it refreshing to read a blog of someone just noodling on an idea rather than pitching a new product.

Re: Towards a harness that can do anything

#80

This post is chock-full of soft ideas. They make no meaningful steps toward "a harness that can do anything". The suggestion is to replace a small node application with specific tooling, with a vm "to give it more capabilities". This is what Agent sandboxes are, already. Making the sandbox the harness, doesn't achieve a concrete goal.

I find it refreshing to read a blog of someone just noodling on an idea rather than pitching a new product.

It’s a pitch for their product ambience
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