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New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

bbc.com

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Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#101

Post by AlecSchueler »

inglor_cz wrote: post #48
Pragmata wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?

"Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk. After 10 generations, the people are every bit as local as the previous population was. 300 years is such an abyss of time that most of us would fail to name a single of our ancestors by name. Kladsko was a Czech city from approx. 1000 to 1742. The old town still looks a bit like very small Prague [0]. Was lost in a war (to the Prussian…

> "Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk

Colonialism is the historical basis of almost all of global society today. It's not at all weird to be concerned with it when it still drives so much of the relative power dynamics between states and between people(s) today.

The example you're giving of Czechia and Prussia simply isn't an example of a colonial action.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#102

Post by AlecSchueler »

halJordan wrote: post #88
Pragmata wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?

I mean, do you think the east prussia should be returned to Germany? Should West Virginia be retrieved to Virginia?

Those cases didn't involve colonisation. Though Virginia certainly did if you go back a little further.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#103

Post by maccard »

Laurel1234 wrote: post #95
pelagicAustral wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, you truly are done drinking that kool-aid, you finished the whole jug by the look of it. I'd recommend you to come back to this thread every couple of years and re-read your slop, maybe you'll learn one or two things about yourself while at it.

Feel free to explain the difference. All you can respond with is outrage because your position is not internally consistent. You can see its morally reprehensible when the Ruzzians do it but when it comes to your country oh no then it's fine because you just need your emotional support colonies. Like no shit one of your countrymen above said you couldn't give back Gibraltar because it'd set a bad precedent for Malvin…

> Feel free to explain the difference.

Well for one, neither of the referendums in Gibraltar were performed within 6 months of being invaded by the UK. I don't think any(?) government recognises the results of the votes in the donbas regions - except for the country running a 4 year special military operation in the region. Those referendums were held 12 years ago, and still haven't been recognised by anyone.

> All you can respond with is outrage because your position is not internally consistent

Anyone who thinks that the situation in Gibraltar in 2026 is equivalent to the situation in the Donbas in 2026 is either ignoring _literally every single reason as to why they are different_, or they're just trolling. And honestly, based on the rest of your reply I'm pretty sure you're in the latter camp.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#104

Post by amunozo »

iso1631 wrote: post #83
amunozo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain since the fifteenth century, same as Granada and way older than the Moroccan state. I am telling that Gibraltar people should decide which country they want to belong to, same thing with Ceuta and Melilla.

Time and time again the Gibraltar people tell Spain they don't want to be part of Spain Time and time again Spain complains Time and time again hypocrites I don't mind if you believe that "land makes right" or if you believe that "people have rights", but be consistent

I am saying, for the third time, that the people of Gibraltar are sovereing and have the right to choose. Same with Ceuta and Melilla.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#105

Post by inglor_cz »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #101
inglor_cz wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk. After 10 generations, the people are every bit as local as the previous population was. 300 years is such an abyss of time that most of us would fail to name a single of our ancestors by name. Kladsko was a Czech city from approx. 1000 to 1742. The old town still looks a bit like very small Prague [0]. Was lost in a war (to the Prussian…

> "Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk Colonialism is the historical basis of almost all of global society today. It's not at all weird to be concerned with it when it still drives so much of the relative power dynamics between states and between people(s) today. The example you're giving of Czechia and Prussia simply isn't an example of a colonial action.

That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". I have even met people who claim that Russian expansion into Siberia was not colonialism, because it wasn't done using ships.

I don't really buy it. It feels to me as unnatural as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence than theft of anything else.

It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology, or maybe very practical demands for reparations which shouldn't be hindered by other demands for reparations, and thus the others need to be downgraded pre-emptively.

It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures, such as bad security situation, rolling blackouts, subpar maintenance of infrastructure and endemic corruption. "Hey, don't look into this, you know how bad the colonialists were?"

(Fairly similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda tries to pin the failure of their current war of aggression on anyone and anything but their own stupid decision to go all in.)

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#106

Post by unkeen »

pelagicAustral wrote: post #98
Laurel1234 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to explain the difference. All you can respond with is outrage because your position is not internally consistent. You can see its morally reprehensible when the Ruzzians do it but when it comes to your country oh no then it's fine because you just need your emotional support colonies. Like no shit one of your countrymen above said you couldn't give back Gibraltar because it'd set a bad precedent for Malvin…

The place is called Falkland Islands, get used to it, it will never change.

They're called Îles Malouines in French and Islas Malvinas in Spanish, after all.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#107

Post by AlecSchueler »

inglor_cz wrote: post #105
AlecSchueler wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk Colonialism is the historical basis of almost all of global society today. It's not at all weird to be concerned with it when it still drives so much of the relative power dynamics between states and between people(s) today. The example you're giving of Czechia and Prussia simply isn't an example of a colonial action.

That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". I have even met people who claim that Russian expansion into Siberia was not colonialism, because it wasn't done using ships. I don't really buy it. It feels to me as unnatural as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smart…

> That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth".

It does, yes, and completely reasonably so. That's why it has a different name.

> .. as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence...

Yes, it is like that indeed and I'm sure you'll recognise the difference between intellectual property theft and the theft of a car, or the difference between stealing food from a supermarket and stealing food from a beggar.

> I don't really buy it

> It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology

Ok? Maybe read some more about it. Right now it feels like you're the one pushing an ideology without really making an argument for it.

> It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures

Yes, it might. Governments have a host of ways to distract the public from issues. That doesn't change the reality of the history of, or contemporary effects of, colonialism.

> ... similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda ...

Boogeyman argument and an emotional appeal.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#108

Post by inglor_cz »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #107
inglor_cz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". I have even met people who claim that Russian expansion into Siberia was not colonialism, because it wasn't done using ships. I don't really buy it. It feels to me as unnatural as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smart…

> That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". It does, yes, and completely reasonably so. That's why it has a different name. > .. as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence... Yes, it is like that indeed and I'm sure…

I have read quite a lot about it and my conclusion is what I wrote above. A mostly ideological distinction without real difference - even less difference than your examples of theft (intellectual property aside - that is not theft by any definition, but infringement).

People have always tried to conquer other territories, make use of them and settle them. To make an artificial slice out of this continuous and omnipresent phenomenon and call it by another name is incoherent, but then ideologies are mostly incoherent, and colonialism as a very specific sin was a very good and efficient argument in Cold War propaganda and its struggle for influence in the Third World.

Soviets excelled in propaganda, and many of their ideas (like AIDS being an artificial disease, unilateral nuclear disarmament, or the fake contrast between colonialism and membership in the Socialist Bloc) survived the fall of the country.

That said, a very similar line was already pushed by the Japanese in order to paint their own brutal empire as some kind of Pan-Asian utopia. But their trace in global discourse is negligible to the Soviet one, which was much more sophisticated and long-lasting.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#109

Post by general1465 »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #102
halJordan wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, do you think the east prussia should be returned to Germany? Should West Virginia be retrieved to Virginia?

Those cases didn't involve colonisation. Though Virginia certainly did if you go back a little further.

Kaliningrad has been colonized properly by Russians, right after removing indigenous population.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#110

Post by tim333 »

unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

Geography is not generally the most important factor. There are legal ownership precedents and then the will of the people who live there first. You can't just say Greenland or Canada are United States because the happen to be close. Or at least you shouldn't.
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