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Briar is in maintenance mode

briarproject.org

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Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#51

Post by rglullis »

embedding-shape wrote: post #8
pogue wrote: post #2

Sounds like it's basically dead. The issue with messenger apps is that they're a dime a dozen, there are so many of them and they offer so much variability in security, privacy, but most importantly usability and uptime. If your friends won't switch to them, there's almost no point in having them or using them.

For most IMs I agree, Briar is/was slightly different though, being P2P and E2E encrypted. There isn't many IMs out there supporting Bluetooth connections between users for example.

Being p2p, network effects are even larger: you have to convince not only your own friends to install and use, but also rely on enough density in your area?

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#52

Post by _heimdall »

lou1306 wrote: post #41
joecot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Briar is dead because it doesn't work on iPhones. It doesn't work on iPhones because iOS will only allow waking the app from background when there's a push notification. Push notifications have to go through Apple's servers, which defeats the purpose of a decentralized app where your messages (and metadata) can't be traced.

What about a "fake push" that does not leak message contents, sender etc.? Fuzz the time the push notification is sent by a random amount of time and you have something plausibly private given the constraints?

You're still dependent on Apple continuing to allow such a use.

If the goal is messaging that avoids government spying or censorship its a lost cause - the government would simply compel Apple to pull the app in their jurisdiction.

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#53

Post by ijustlovemath »

rglullis wrote: post #51
embedding-shape wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most IMs I agree, Briar is/was slightly different though, being P2P and E2E encrypted. There isn't many IMs out there supporting Bluetooth connections between users for example.

Being p2p, network effects are even larger: you have to convince not only your own friends to install and use, but also rely on enough density in your area?

Helene survivor here. I will be spreading the word about this project and keeping some APKs for if the shit hits the fan again. FDroid being able to sync between local devices means all you need is to get fdroid onto someones phone. Wish they had an iphone app though!

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#54

Post by ValdikSS »

nubinetwork wrote: post #3

> unreliable background operation on android Pretty much every app I have has delayed notifications, and no matter of battery optimization settings can fix it.

Do you use VPN? This is a common misconfiguration of a server-side NAT related to too long or too short NAT timeouts combined with "act like a blackhole if we don't know anything about this connection".

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#55

Post by thayne »

lou1306 wrote: post #41
joecot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Briar is dead because it doesn't work on iPhones. It doesn't work on iPhones because iOS will only allow waking the app from background when there's a push notification. Push notifications have to go through Apple's servers, which defeats the purpose of a decentralized app where your messages (and metadata) can't be traced.

What about a "fake push" that does not leak message contents, sender etc.? Fuzz the time the push notification is sent by a random amount of time and you have something plausibly private given the constraints?

That still exposes some metadata. Depending on your threat model, leaking the timing may or may not be a problem.

Also, how do you avoid leaking the sender? You can avoid giving Apple that information by routing the notification through a server, but then that server would know the sender and recipient.

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#56

Post by joecot »

lou1306 wrote: post #41
joecot wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Briar is dead because it doesn't work on iPhones. It doesn't work on iPhones because iOS will only allow waking the app from background when there's a push notification. Push notifications have to go through Apple's servers, which defeats the purpose of a decentralized app where your messages (and metadata) can't be traced.

What about a "fake push" that does not leak message contents, sender etc.? Fuzz the time the push notification is sent by a random amount of time and you have something plausibly private given the constraints?

Briar is designed to work over 1) tor, 2) ad-hoc wifi, 3) bluetooth. None of those are going to be conducive to sending push notifications through Apple's servers.

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#57

Post by Joe_Cool »

dist-epoch wrote: post #30
nubinetwork wrote: post #3

> unreliable background operation on android Pretty much every app I have has delayed notifications, and no matter of battery optimization settings can fix it.

It seems to me this only happens if you don't use the app much. Or maybe some apps are "allowlisted", I've never had delayed WhatsApp/Slack notifications.

There should be a category: "Background Check" in the Android developer options. You can pretty finely tune or alter the automatically set priorities and permissions for background activity there.

I don't know exactly what the option is called but since Android 8 there is at least a toggle there per app. Later versions have lots more settings.

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#58

Post by timcobb »

klibertp wrote: post #48
timcobb wrote: post #11

> Last year, we decided that we wouldn’t realistically be able to solve these issues and so we reluctantly decided to shut down the project. If these are actually the problems, then why not throw 200 dollars of GPT 5.6 at these instead of shutting it down? Were these systematic problems (Apple/Google hegemony, for example) that couldn't be beat with code?

Try it. The AI will probably tell you that it's, of course, doable. You would have to start by making your own AOSP distribution and require an unlocked bootloader to even attempt to install it. You definitely can throw an AI agent at the problem, but a) it'll be significantly more than $200, no matter how you cut it; b) you'll end up with tens to hundreds of kloc of AI-generated code in a security-conscious context;…

Thank you! So in your mind, it would be a big investment of human time/tokens and the big obstacle, ultimately, is Big Tech?

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#59

Post by timcobb »

Kiro wrote: post #29
timcobb wrote: post #11

> Last year, we decided that we wouldn’t realistically be able to solve these issues and so we reluctantly decided to shut down the project. If these are actually the problems, then why not throw 200 dollars of GPT 5.6 at these instead of shutting it down? Were these systematic problems (Apple/Google hegemony, for example) that couldn't be beat with code?

I agree. These are classic problems where LLMs really shine. I would be very surprised if GPT-5.6 couldn't fix them.

From the minimal context I got, it seems like there are underlying platform access problems in the way. In my experience, attempting to work around these issues is demoralizing.

Re: Briar is in maintenance mode

#60

Post by timcobb »

klibertp wrote: post #50
timcobb wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine pretty good if it's actually just a code issue

It's not. Modern Android is increasingly limiting what apps can do. It's a "code issue" in the sense that you can clone the Android sources, overhaul security and power management systems, and build your app to run on that. It'll work. It's doable. Would that be a solution for this project, though?

Well, no. If the project is being shut down because its target(s) went away, then that seems unavoidable.

It would be good, IMO, if people could come together and build out an open mobile platform not subject to SV hegemony, so I think what you're saying is the way to go, actually. Because building out AOSP and or just something forked/from scratch is... actually... accessible now in my opinion. I think it doesn't make sense _not_ to be oriented in this direction anymore. There's no reason to remain cautious because, well, right now we have _nothing_ :(. We are subject to the fancies of the behemoths that exist to self perpetuate. Working around them and depending on them is demoralizing and not fun.

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