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SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

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Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#221
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are super shares like Zuckerberg's and Musk a new thing? Genuinely curious if they're a recent invention or something that's quietly happened for a while because it seems like a large inversion of the deal of going public, lose some control of the company in exchange for a large amount of cash but these nonvoting/supervoting share splits seem to completely upend what I understood to be part of the deal for access to…

Ford has them. What it has meant for Ford-- and will probably mean for Facebook-- is that Zuck's heirs will control the company, for better or for worse. The common justification for this is that for a media company (NYT) you want a person or family to take responsibility for the editorial content, not a pure profit seeker. Facebook has it both ways and typically denies it has editorial control. IMO, the flaw of mark…

The USSR's main problem was not that it was socialist or communist, but that it was Russian. Russia is run by people who are adept at coopting revolutionary movements into a corrupt, authoritarian core. When left-wing libertarians say "true Socialism has never been tried", this is (along with China) what they are referring to.

The theoretical arguments against socialism (or, more specifically, centrally planned state production) given by Hayek is that pricing is information and markets are computers on that information, ergo changing the information gives you a bad result. This certainly applied to the kinds of production the Soviet Union loved to engage in, but there's no particular reason why it can't apply to capitalist enterprise as well. I mean, Facebook's headcount or market cap alone is larger than some actual nation-states' population or GDP.

Just like how the USSR was nominally socialist but practically engaged in exactly the same state-controlled mode of production as feudalism, today's corporate entities are nominally capitalist but practically feudalist. The medieval historians in the room would probably balk at me using the word "feudalist" to describe either, so to be clear, what I mean is "an economic system in which the majority of profit goes to landowners / platform owners / the state / etc". In this economic mode, companies can warp markets to their whims in exactly the same way Congress can.

Except, Congress is democratically controlled. Joint-stock corporations are inherently oligarchial in structure: control of the company is assigned based on how many shares you can afford to buy, so the company answers to the amount of money that has capitalized it, and not any other concern[0]. The "innovation" in Facebook's IPO was to go from internal oligarchy to internal autocracy - to install Mark Zuckerberg as God-Emperor of Facebook and largely depose the shareholder class that normally runs publicly-traded entities.

You'd think markets would have priced in this risk, but Facebook IPO'd at the peak of its hype and was able to get away with this. The funny thing about Hayek's distributed market computer is that it does not actually reach perfectly efficient price computation. If it did, you could crack RSA keys by placing a sufficient number of suitably complex options trades. Markets can put a bounty on fixing incorrect pricing information, but they can also just refuse to accept corrected pricing. Everyone rushing into Facebook stock counteracted the few people concerned about the ridiculously autocratic governance structure. And now that it's obvious that such a thing was a problem, it's too late to challenge it, because now Facebook has platform holder money. Zuckerberg can bribe the shareholders to not care about their lack of control.

The history of state intervention is very fraught, but there's one subset of interventions that has a better track record than most: those intended to stymie autocrats of trade. The state cannot correctly set prices better than a market can, but it absolutely can prevent other state-like entities from doing the same thing. Likewise, it would behoove the world's competition law and securities regulators to investigate and regulate the use of dual-class shares to retain control over companies you do not own.

Unfortunately, the current administration is unlikely to do anything about this.

Actually, to make matters worse, Texas is deliberately trying to pour gasoline on the problem by disenfranchising minority shareholders. I believe this was done specifically to give Elon Musk even more control over SpaceX, because Delaware made the mistake of actually entertaining a shareholder lawsuit over Musk's pay packet. If Facebook was an autocracy that bribed its shareholders into compliance, then SpaceX is an autocracy that says, "Fuck you, pay me". If there's one thing that gives me hope, it's that the markets are rightfully rejecting this obvious attempt at offloading Musk's toxic junk onto retail. But this is mainly because Elon failed to generate suitable hype to get the market to buy into his trash, not because markets are actually good at pricing in this specific kind of risk.

[0] In fact, this is part of why you see companies go to great lengths to fight unions, even when negotiating with a union would be cheaper. The shareholder class considers democratic control (one worker, one vote) to be an existential threat.

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#222
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company you mentioned has made more progress in those spaces than anyone else, and they are all clear progress towards the goals discussed.

You're mistaken. Name 3 accomplishments he made and I'll show you world class work done elsewhere by other companies. The only thing he did which was notable was Starlink and I'll gladly grant you that. China is about to eat Starlink's lunch with their own tech. Again I think people overestimate Musk's contributions to the world.

Tesla may not have pioneered fundamental technology, but it put together a combination of price and utility that nobody matched at the time. Find me anything in 2018 like a Model 3 that wasn't a compliance car.

Profitably reusable rockets were a major accomplishment. People like to argue against this. Every argument I've seen is either saying it doesn't actually save money or it wasn't new, neither of which is correct. It's very hard to argue with the numbers here; SpaceX is now launching more into orbit than every other launch provider combined.

I think the main reason people downplay these things is precisely because his own claims are so exaggerated. Doing 165 orbital launches in a year just doesn't sound impressive when he promised we'd be sending people to Mars years ago.

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He claimed that he would unearth billions of dollars of government fraud, only to lie about that too. Instead his team cut aid programs and have contributed to an estimated 700,000 deaths so far. https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-new-yorker-interview/the-...

[flagged]

> It's crazy to believe that stopping the funding of US backed NGOs directly kills people.

Why? Have US-backed NGOs never saved a single life with their spending?

You can argue it's not worth the spending, perhaps, but you really can't argue that it's not happening somewhere.

> This is a reason why the US is trillions in debt.

This is a tiny, tiny, nearly invisible fraction of that reason.

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, its reasonable for a delay in options being available while market makers prepare to make the market for those options. But shorting? Day 1, the shares are trading and available to borrow to sell to short.

Are they actually? How many intermediate steps are involved in finding shares to borrow for a short? I imagine they have to be transferred to some central depository with the feature, for a start, and that takes 2-4 days

Your broker will locate and borrow the shares from an available pool (such as other clients' portfolios), sell them on your behalf, and hold the cash. They don't have to go to the clearinghouse.

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#225
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The president may throw a tantrum that “some crazy democrat throws stones under the feet of that beautiful Elon, the most beautiful Elon we ever had”. Better do what the new Tzar wants. Dude was sent here apparently by the God, don’t mess with the God.

I thought Elon and Trump broke up?

Have they? Maybe some spacex investor is the “most beautiful we ever had”.

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and your broker have to be pretty damn brazen to iron grip a highly liquid stock all the ways down to -95%.

Shorts can go down to -1000% and beyond.

Not true: Depending on product and regulatory regime, for distinct trader/customer groups there may be distinct rules.

And if you are buying an instrument where you can lose more than you invested, the approach maybe wrong? :-)

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#227
post #71

The financial press failed to run headlines damning the SpaceX IPO, or all the ongoing false promises Elon makes. And now they report that investors, many of whom are their customers, are suffering...

This particular author/publication has been beating this drum about Elon and his many companies for years now, fwiw.

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#229
post #61

I can't comprehend for the life of me that people put their life savings in what Elon Musk is doing. Are people not seeing how he's lying about the future all the time? He said he aimed to have 5000 Optimus robots out by end of 2025, 50000 by 2026 and 10 times that in 2027. He promised in 2015 that full autonomous driving would arrive in 2 years and we aren't there yet 11 years later. He even said in 2016 that there…

Salesforce often does product announcements to determine how the market might respond before they ever build anything. The very thing they're selling may not exist and might not even be possible as they describe it.

I think it's a way some businesses just do business and the market has not issued a correction to that. Maybe it should?

Re: SpaceX bond worth 10% less than issue price – heading for junk bond status

#230
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the inclusion rules are basically "these are the hard limits that specify which stocks are eligible, unless someone really big and lucrative comes along, in which case it's whatever and we'll just adjust the rules to make them eligible"?

Isn’t that how capitalism works in general? Edit: thanks for the downvotes. Defenders of capitalism unite!!! lol. Free market right?

Can this be called "Capitalism" when SpaceX is now a public company?
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