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Never argue with your boss (2009)

righteousit.com

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Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#61

Post by tdeck »

Keeping the temperature low on these kinds of discussions seems like solid advice. Two interesting things about the conclusion I noticed:

1. The author left before any concrete negative outcomes came to pass. In particular, they may be mistaken that "nobody there really wanted to work with me after that" since they started looking for a job immediately. Sometimes people have a tendency to do too much pessimistic mind reading.

> If I was willing to engineer a scene like had just transpired in our all-hands meeting, how could they trust me as a member of their team? I might turn on them next.

> I also started looking for a new job, because I realized nobody there really wanted to work with me after that. I was gone a month later, and my boss lasted several more years.

2. The author also didn't stick around long enough after their faux pas to see the outcome of their architectural decisions. Maybe they weren't right after all.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#62

Post by tdeck »

datakan wrote: post #15
knuckleheads wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? It provided a pretty good argument against exactly this attitude.

I found it pretty ridiculous. I've made a 30 year career "arguing" with bosses. It's literally why they pay me. If they are little dictators then they aren't worth helping.

Agreed. Having a boss say do this just seems completely unprofessional and over the top. I can imagine a speaking style that would lead to this, but it's something beyond just "argument".

> In fact, in the middle of the meeting he announced, “I don’t need this s—“, and walked out of the meeting.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#63

Post by Frieren »

sillyfluke wrote: post #56
Frieren wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. This is the main reason that most abuse happens in companies. Discussions are kept private so nobody can add 1+1 and see how toxic are certain bosses. This also enables misalignments and lies. I have seen bosses that are will say one thing to one employee and a different one to the next and even a different one upwards to leadership. Lack of transpar…

I agree, though it should be said arguing in public is for people willing to accept the consequences of their actions (retaliation, getting fired etc). That's why ideally you should arrange your life (mentally or materially) in such a way that allows you to act without the fear of being fired, if possible obviously.

Yes. When management is bad then having a public discussion will end up in retaliation.

My advice is not to always discuss in public, but that companies should encourage that behaviour and punish toxic management.

You made a very good point.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#64

Post by DrScientist »

elihu wrote: post #45
DrScientist wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things here - Steve might well hire smart people to tell him what to do - but in the end Steve made the choices and drove them through. Management is all about choices with limited information - there is rarely one clear and obvious route forward, but a strategy of following all routes simultaneously will lead to failure as there needs to be focus. So somebody has to make that choice and then drive that…

The way I look at it is that a manager can make decisions with wider scope, but the people under them exert greater control in day-to-day tasks over some narrower scope. In software development, for example, a manager might set goals for some project, but it's individual developers who are actually writing the code that usually have the most leeway to decide for themselves how best to solve some particular problem. (…

Sure - though this thinking can lead to the common misconception that CEO's just need to be generically good managers and not experts in the area the company operates in.

I think this is often wrong for two reasons

    - the layers are not entirely disconnected - the devil is often in the details
    - hard to detect BS from subordinates

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#65

Post by onesandofgrain »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #21
onesandofgrain wrote: post #7

Have seen this myself in practise. Just like in this case it didnt end well. But this «lesson» so to speak is just the same concept in everyday life applied to work. You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.

> You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist. This is not so much about free speech (because if it was, the problem wouldn't exist so much in countries that have a different concept of free speech from the USA), but rather that a scientific education strongly nudges you into becoming a "truth-…

If unis main job was to argue for truth you would have a quite different world. Unis main role these days is to make sure you regurgitate whatever they preach and that's it. That's why most politicians are actors informally and formally.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#66

Post by jongjong »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #55
jongjong wrote: post #26

100%, don't argue with your boss. Sometimes, depending on how they phrased a statement or proposal, you can present contradictory facts but never claim to have the answer. Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. In any case, they must decide. Disagreeing in front of other employees is especially risky... It can work in your favor sometim…

> Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. Not everybody is adept at interpreting such subtle signs. A particular problem is when bosses say things like "Your opinion is appreciated.", "I value honest feedback.", blabla, but give different body signs. In my opinion, this problem is less marked in Germany than the USA, because people tend…

Fully agree. Anyone can get the signals wrong. I guess you should watch how other employees (who have been around for longer) interact with the boss. If everyone is always praising the boss and never criticizing, there's a reason it's like this.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#67

Post by OutOfHere »

I think it's important to at least politely put your argument in writing in an email, not on Slack, so it's documented formally. In the email, document the serious issues with the boss' solution. If possible, Cc it to the boss' manager. Make sure to Bcc the email to yourself or take a photo or screenshot of it for legal reasons, so if you're retaliated against, you have dated evidence. This holds the boss responsible for his decision without coming in the way.

Also, those asking to switch the job haven't seen that all nearly all bosses have this problem, and switching jobs probably won't fix it.

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