Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 125 posts

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#81

Post by unkeen »

bbg2401 wrote: post #80
Laurel1234 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to enforce a culture on those people despite existing treaties, laws, culture and democracy? Britain has been doing this to Ireland for the last 800 years. You still continue to hold their land, oppress its people and do your best to exterminate what shred is left of their language. If Chinggis himself rose from the grave, I'd care a lot more about his thoughts on these matters than a Brit's.

Maybe tone down the hatred?

No hatred was uttered. Just a view of the world you're apparently opposed to.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#82

Post by iso1631 »

maccard wrote: post #64
nephihaha wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Wales was more mixed. Northern Ireland got the best deal of the three. Thanks to the Good Friday Agreement, people there can get Irish (and therefore EU) passports. This is a perennial issue in Scottish politics, but Scotland, unlike Northern Ireland, and maybe Kent, does not have a land border with the EU. My personal hope was that the UK would remain in the EU, but bot…

The Good Friday deal doesn't entitle everyone born in NI to Irish Citizenship. (anymore). It's a little more complicated than that for people born in the last 20 years. > Since 1 January 2005, if you are born in Northern Ireland, you can claim Irish citizenship if your parent (or parents) are either British or Irish citizens, or one of them has lived on the island of Ireland for at least 3 out of the 4 years immediat…

Of course there aren't passport checks on planes or boats between Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland, but that only applies to Irish and British citizens.

On planes/boats between Northern Ireland and Great Britain there aren't passport checks, but they can and do check your passport.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#83

Post by iso1631 »

amunozo wrote: post #44
iso1631 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you're also in favour of Ceuta and Melilla being given to Morocco over the wishes of the people whos ancestors have lived there for centuries?

Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain since the fifteenth century, same as Granada and way older than the Moroccan state. I am telling that Gibraltar people should decide which country they want to belong to, same thing with Ceuta and Melilla.

Time and time again the Gibraltar people tell Spain they don't want to be part of Spain

Time and time again Spain complains

Time and time again hypocrites

I don't mind if you believe that "land makes right" or if you believe that "people have rights", but be consistent

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#84

Post by obayesshelton »

unkeen wrote: post #53
obayesshelton wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that context America should be given back, Alaska should be given back, Australia should be given back... the list goes on.

Well, in theory, they should! :) Imagine a world where expansionist acts of violent injustice could be undone.

I do not disagree, where does it stop though. We would have to go back to when Homo sapiens and Neanderthals killed each other.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#85

Post by unkeen »

rmunn wrote: post #40
unkeen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not talking about any of the points you mention, I was refering to the geographical facts alone. Wouldn't you agree that in general it is kind of silly to claim ownership of a piece of land that is far, far away from your own country?

There are many, MANY islands scattered around Earth's oceans. Not all of them have the resources to be self-sufficient, so any inhabitants have to import goods from somewhere. There are two options: either each island is its own country, or some islands belong to some other country. Given how easy it is to navigate to most islands (some of them are in harder-to-navigate straits), it doesn't make much practical differ…

That may all be true, but you’re talking about voluntary affiliations here.

Colonies are rarely ceded voluntarily, but are usually the result of an invasion or a lost conflict. The fact that this is no longer the case with Gibraltar today, because its inhabitants value the benefits of belonging to Britain, is simply a consequence of the time that has passed since then. It does not automatically undo the imperialist actions of the past.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#86

Post by unkeen »

bbg2401 wrote: post #79
unkeen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't debate that.

It's unlikely you'll try to debate anything. You're interested in agitation alone.

No, I'm just thinking about things on a more abstract level and wonder whether what is taken for granted really is always a given when doing so.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#87

Post by unkeen »

obayesshelton wrote: post #84
unkeen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in theory, they should! :) Imagine a world where expansionist acts of violent injustice could be undone.

I do not disagree, where does it stop though. We would have to go back to when Homo sapiens and Neanderthals killed each other.

We could have stopped right at the moment when ‘need’ was replaced by ‘greed’. I know, illusionary.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#88

Post by halJordan »

Pragmata wrote: post #32
kdheiwns wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Forcing those people out or seizing the land from them would be the definition of colonialism, yes. And exclaves exist all around the world. Geography has never really meant anything in national terms. Spain has a piece of land on Africa and I don't think they plan on giving that up.

>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?

I mean, do you think the east prussia should be returned to Germany? Should West Virginia be retrieved to Virginia?

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#89

Post by yorwba »

Buxato wrote: post #73
iso1631 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It belongs to the people who live there. While you may think places like Point Roberts should be forcibly moved to Canada, or Ceuta should be forcibly moved to Morocco, I'm of the opinion of self determination, as is the global view based on the United Nations, who recognizes self-determination as the right of all peoples to freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural devel…

So if we conquer a place and change the people there, it's the new people who decides? or how we proceed?

It has always been thus. If you don't like the outcome of a war of conquest, you'll most likely have to start another war of conquest to try and get a different outcome.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#90

Post by maccard »

iso1631 wrote: post #82
maccard wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Good Friday deal doesn't entitle everyone born in NI to Irish Citizenship. (anymore). It's a little more complicated than that for people born in the last 20 years. > Since 1 January 2005, if you are born in Northern Ireland, you can claim Irish citizenship if your parent (or parents) are either British or Irish citizens, or one of them has lived on the island of Ireland for at least 3 out of the 4 years immediat…

Of course there aren't passport checks on planes or boats between Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland, but that only applies to Irish and British citizens. On planes/boats between Northern Ireland and Great Britain there aren't passport checks, but they can and do check your passport.

> Of course there aren't passport checks on planes or boats between Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland, but that only applies to Irish and British citizens.

And the only way to enforce that is to not enforce it all, or to check everyone for documents. Both cork and Dublin airports have a manned border check for all inbound flights (can’t speak for other airports) but a passport isn’t required. If you fly between European countries there’s no border check _at all_. (Your airline may check but that’s different).

> On planes/boats between Northern Ireland and Great Britain there aren't passport checks, but they can and do check your passport.

That’s a domestic flight so yeah. Anecdotally I don’t think I’ve ever been stopped for a passport check in 15 years of flying between the Uk and Belfast.

Post reply on HN