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New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

bbc.com

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Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#71

Post by Buxato »

kdheiwns wrote: post #12
unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Forcing those people out or seizing the land from them would be the definition of colonialism, yes. And exclaves exist all around the world. Geography has never really meant anything in national terms. Spain has a piece of land on Africa and I don't think they plan on giving that up.

There is one main difference, that makes UN recognizes Gibraltar as a colony and not Ceuta and Melilla: days before Gibraltar was conquered 100% of the people that lived there was moved out. This is why Gibraltar is a colony and Ceuta and Melilla not. So I don't have clear opinion if people in Gibraltar should have auto-determination or not.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#72

Post by Buxato »

manarth wrote: post #15
unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

Whilst I don't disagree, Spain has similar questions to answer about Ceuta and Melilla.

No, Ceuta and Melilla are not recognized as colonies by UN (see my previous comment about it, and you could add other historic reasons.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#73

Post by Buxato »

iso1631 wrote: post #26
unkeen wrote: post #3

From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.

It belongs to the people who live there. While you may think places like Point Roberts should be forcibly moved to Canada, or Ceuta should be forcibly moved to Morocco, I'm of the opinion of self determination, as is the global view based on the United Nations, who recognizes self-determination as the right of all peoples to freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural devel…

So if we conquer a place and change the people there, it's the new people who decides? or how we proceed?

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#74

Post by Buxato »

Cyph0n wrote: post #17
Laurel1234 wrote: post #4

It'd be even easier if Gibraltar is returned to Spain to whom it belongs.

It would also be great if Ceuta and Melilla returned back to Morocco, and if Western Sahara in turn gained its independence from Morocco. As an aside, I have always found it ironic how Spain continuously whines about Gibraltar while doing the exact same thing to Morocco. At the very least, Spain was smart/lucky enough to lobby the UN early on to not include Ceuta and Melilla in the decolonization list.

It couldn't be returned to a country that didn't exists before that places belonged to Spain. Its not the same thing, people that lived in Gibraltar was moved out. UN agrees with that, Spain politicians are to dumb to lobby anything. Check how much Spain spends in lobbying in US and how much Morocco (that its not even a democracy) spends.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#77

Post by Laurel1234 »

maccard wrote: post #67
Laurel1234 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. The reason was not economic, the reason was that the government polled the people living there and found that support for remaining British is ~100%. The Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk also voted to be part of Russia and not Ukraine, crazy stuff.

Are you genuinely comparing the referendums in Gibraltar to the current situation in Ukraine?

In both cases the settlers from an imperialist power vote their allegiance to said imperialist power.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#78

Post by Cyph0n »

Buxato wrote: post #74
Cyph0n wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would also be great if Ceuta and Melilla returned back to Morocco, and if Western Sahara in turn gained its independence from Morocco. As an aside, I have always found it ironic how Spain continuously whines about Gibraltar while doing the exact same thing to Morocco. At the very least, Spain was smart/lucky enough to lobby the UN early on to not include Ceuta and Melilla in the decolonization list.

It couldn't be returned to a country that didn't exists before that places belonged to Spain. Its not the same thing, people that lived in Gibraltar was moved out. UN agrees with that, Spain politicians are to dumb to lobby anything. Check how much Spain spends in lobbying in US and how much Morocco (that its not even a democracy) spends.

“But Morocco didn’t exist!” - addressed in another reply, see sibling.

The UN argument boils down to Spain lobbying the UN early on (post-WW2) at a time when Morocco and other North African and West Asian states either did not exist yet or did not have the ability to represent themselves well at the UN.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#79

Post by bbg2401 »

unkeen wrote: post #22
manarth wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I don't disagree, Spain has similar questions to answer about Ceuta and Melilla.

I didn't debate that.

It's unlikely you'll try to debate anything. You're interested in agitation alone.

Re: New era for Gibraltar with removal of border controls with Spain

#80

Post by bbg2401 »

Laurel1234 wrote: post #66
PaulRobinson wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not according to the people who live there. Or in fact, Spain, who ceded it to the UK hundreds of years ago. Or do you think Spain has a legal right based on geographic proximity to enforce a culture on those people despite existing treaties, laws, culture and democracy?

> to enforce a culture on those people despite existing treaties, laws, culture and democracy? Britain has been doing this to Ireland for the last 800 years. You still continue to hold their land, oppress its people and do your best to exterminate what shred is left of their language. If Chinggis himself rose from the grave, I'd care a lot more about his thoughts on these matters than a Brit's.

Maybe tone down the hatred?
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