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Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

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Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#11

Why "train" philosophers? When I imagine a "trained philosopher" I see a person who uses a lot of smart-sounding quotes but cannot choose between the right saying and the wrong saying. It's all the same to him, a material that he absorbed and now outputs. Challenge philosophers. Confront them. Let them take on each other.

So, you imagine what a philosopher does, and then tell this imaginary philosopher what to do? Doesn't that strike you as awful presumptuous?

Well, we have to imagine philosopher; the philosopher Form can only be known to us through our experiences with "philosophers" we encounter, from which we can build an idea of the true Form philosopher :p

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#12
post #3
post #2

This sounds a lot like another Scientism dispute, i.e. if all questions of human life can be empirically answered or that there are things beyond testability. It is an exhausting discussion, that goes way deeper than a few snaky comments on contemporary philosophy papers. There is actually a quite good summary on Wikipedia on the conflict: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

It sounds to me more like "Let's stop funding some parts of philosophy that aren't really tied to reality, when there are real philosophical problems with practical consequences that we need people working on". * Edit: Made my interpretation a little less inflammatory.

I've found that the little bits of bullshit philosophy I've accrued over the years find second lives as ideals with practical consequences.

By the time you reach Hegel it's all getting a bit silly; and there's a lot of early philosophy that can be dumped because we can directly interrogate reality on things that previous philosophers cannot.

It's like raging about maths or fundamental science. Turing's paper is a work which must be so far outside the ordinary fellow's experience as to be nearly an insult. It also invented the modern computer as a side-effect.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you imagine what a philosopher does, and then tell this imaginary philosopher what to do? Doesn't that strike you as awful presumptuous?

Well, we have to imagine philosopher; the philosopher Form can only be known to us through our experiences with "philosophers" we encounter, from which we can build an idea of the true Form philosopher :p

Except this fellow hasn't even left the cave, he's yelling at the shadow of a shadow of a philosopher.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#14
post #3
post #2

This sounds a lot like another Scientism dispute, i.e. if all questions of human life can be empirically answered or that there are things beyond testability. It is an exhausting discussion, that goes way deeper than a few snaky comments on contemporary philosophy papers. There is actually a quite good summary on Wikipedia on the conflict: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

It sounds to me more like "Let's stop funding some parts of philosophy that aren't really tied to reality, when there are real philosophical problems with practical consequences that we need people working on". * Edit: Made my interpretation a little less inflammatory.

Other classic (and similarly short-sighted) ideas along those lines would be:

"Stop (all) basic research while there's still applied science to be done."

"We shouldn't be spending money on space exploration while there are still people that are starving/homeless/poor."

"Why are people working on a cure for >, when we still don't have a cure for cancer?"

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#15
post #2

This sounds a lot like another Scientism dispute, i.e. if all questions of human life can be empirically answered or that there are things beyond testability. It is an exhausting discussion, that goes way deeper than a few snaky comments on contemporary philosophy papers. There is actually a quite good summary on Wikipedia on the conflict: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

I first came across it in Hayek.

I'm still thinking it through myself (as you'll see from my self-linking below). My sympathies like with positivism, but I feel that it too has limits.

To me the question is not merely which is correct? It's: which should we subscribe to according to what situation?

So for example, I consider that for the systems we manage and face as professionals, we should be Newtonian-Cartesian positivists[1]. We strive to achieve a state of total understanding and predictability.

It's a lie, of course[2]. But a useful lie. It creates incentives that accepting an incomprehensible universe do not create.

Whereas for some situations, accepting that while it may be in principle deterministic for in practice unpredictable (chaotic) is an important step[3].

[1] http://chester.id.au/2012/04/09/review-drift-into-failure/

[2] http://chester.id.au/2012/06/27/a-not-sobrief-aside-on-reign... , especially the comments.

[3] http://chester.id.au/2012/12/07/review-the-essence-of-hayek-...

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#16
I guess this might be stunning to some people, but even as early as before 1980 there existed people who did great science, and in some cases even great philosophy, and, oh horror, they did not always knew the Bayes theorem, decision theory or too much neuroaesthetics and they were not even very rational in their private lifes. Instead, they became completely immersed in their narrow, precisely-defined field of inquiry and had the completely irrational drive that is neccessary to persist the years of labour it often takes to repeatedly subject ones beliefs to the trials of experiment and revise them times and times again. This kind of insight is not possible if you study game theory on one day, and mathematical logic on the other, and this is even without touching on the huge amount of often conflicting assumptions that underly each of those distinct fields and the ignorance of which often leads people like philosophers to nonsense conclusions.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#17
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds to me more like "Let's stop funding some parts of philosophy that aren't really tied to reality, when there are real philosophical problems with practical consequences that we need people working on". * Edit: Made my interpretation a little less inflammatory.

Other classic (and similarly short-sighted) ideas along those lines would be: "Stop (all) basic research while there's still applied science to be done." "We shouldn't be spending money on space exploration while there are still people that are starving/homeless/poor." "Why are people working on a cure for >, when we still don't have a cure for cancer?"

I am really curious: did you read the example abstracts in the post? If so, can you help me understand why things like that should be funded?

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#18
The argument is absurd. Claiming that universities are "poisoning minds" by teaching Aristotle and Descartes in 101 Intro to Philosophy courses is just silly. Those same universities teach modern philosophy courses that deal with the intersection of science and philosophy – judging by my one or two philosophy friends, philosophers are much more interested in the practical discoveries of psychology, math, and science than practitioners in those fields are interested in the most challenging branches of philosophy, which is a damn shame.

The reason Aristotle and Descartes are taught, the reason the roots of philosophical study are so important, is that philosophy at its highest is the process of directing inquiry at that which is not yet examined. Plato's Laws and Aristotle's Poetics mark some of the earliest attempts made by man to reason about the world simply through observation and lengthy reasoning. Descartes' work is even more breathtaking, in a sense, in that Descartes took the process of philosophers before him and developed a formalized explanation of how that process worked, then insisted that we could not fully understand the universe unless we applied this process to slowly revealing it. It was the birth of modern science, and it followed a profound philosophical insight.

Philosophy is a conversation that goes back thousands of years. Modern philosophy is so fascinating that of course there's a temptation to skip right to it – in my personal studies, I bounce back and forth between contemporary writers and writers from other centuries and millennia, letting the former refine my understanding of the latter and the latter provide context for the former. But the process of philosophy's development is important to teach, not to mention a somewhat exhilarating story when told properly.

Those contemporary articles the author scorns are proof that you can take two or three sentences from anything and make it sound much worse than it is. Yes, some of those subjects have been debated for years and years – that's a feature, not a bug. Philosophy's purpose is to search not for an answer to the surface questions (and when you're doing it right, everything becomes a surface question) but to dive deeper into questions of what lies beneath those questions, what assumptions we make when we use certain words or claim certain beliefs. We'll stop asking those questions when culture shifts enough that those questions cease making sense to ask – and if they do, it will be in large part because philosophy has helped reveal some unseen truths that led to a reorientation of society.

Look, Hacker News loves this stuff because people here are largely surface-oriented people. We love practical results, we love making things that directly affect a population's lives. LessWrong is best known for its connection to Eliezer Yudkowsky, a bright guy who's interested in putting an end to forms of death. This article's written by somebody who works for a Singularity institution. Those are what a lot of us think of when we think of philosophy – attempting to answer questions as old as mankind by devising a technical "solution" to them. Like plugging leaks and whatnot.

You have to understand that this isn't philosophy's sole purpose – in fact, this is a shallower purpose than philosophy's real one, which is to constantly search for deeper underlying truth. Philosophers should be aware of scientific developments, especially psychological ones, but only inasmuch as those developments completely invalidate a part of their studies, which isn't frequent. Philosophers aren't writing for the everyman; they're writing to continue a certain lofty ivory-tower discussion that slowly trickles down, through conceptual artists and writers and thinkers, to more practical-minded makers, down slowly towards people with more "mass-market" appeal, until what started as a very high-minded concept has shifted our way of thinking entirely.

Now, is that the only place philosophers should exist? No! The more philosophers, the more philosophy-oriented practitioners in whatever field, the better. But the solution is not for philosophy to become more scientific, it's for science to turn more philosophical. Insist that scientists and programmers and psychologists study philosophy. Teach philosophy to business majors. Remind students that inquiry lies at the heart of all understanding, all breakthroughs, and that therefore it's useful for nearly anything you'll undertake in your life. But don't critique philosophy for its approach. That sort of pure inquiry is still necessary, it's more difficult than ever – the geniuses of the 20th century are far more frustrating than the geniuses of ancient Greece and Europe – and it's under attack from many fronts, ranging from the blatantly anti-intellectual to the more subtly-so like this one.

The architect Christopher Alexander, who I greatly admire and whose work combines philosophical inquiry with practical reasoning with a fantastic mathematical rigor, makes the argument that what we typically think of as "practical" will never be enough to fully understand the nature of how the universe is organized. We can figure it out part by tiny part, but that's insufficient for thought or practice on any significant scale. He's a critic of our reliance on physics and constructing physical scientific models, not because they aren't the most cutting-edge way we know to study the universe – they are! no question about it! – but because they have their blind spots, just as every practice of inquiry throughout history has had its blind spots. For him, there is a practical intersection between math and philosophy, science and spirituality, that could be said to favor each side in a different way. But to emphasize one over any other simply because we value its "results" more would be just as disastrous as to favor the other instead. Each type of study is good at a very particular thing, and we should let it be good at that thing without insisting that it bow its head to the demands of the others.

The result of his thinking, incidentally, is that he comes out criticizing modern philosophy as well, but for much sounder and more incisive reasons than lukeprog does in this article.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#19
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds to me more like "Let's stop funding some parts of philosophy that aren't really tied to reality, when there are real philosophical problems with practical consequences that we need people working on". * Edit: Made my interpretation a little less inflammatory.

The web site's not loading for me, so unfortunately I can't read the article yet, but your summary sounds worryingly wrongminded to me. Philosophy should not necessarily be a practical endeavor – it concerns itself with being, life, and existence on their most abstract and difficult levels. There is a place for functional philosophy, and plenty of places where modern scientific discoveries can aid a line of philosoph…

Why? Is this how philosophy is or how it ought to be?

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#20
post #6
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web site's not loading for me, so unfortunately I can't read the article yet, but your summary sounds worryingly wrongminded to me. Philosophy should not necessarily be a practical endeavor – it concerns itself with being, life, and existence on their most abstract and difficult levels. There is a place for functional philosophy, and plenty of places where modern scientific discoveries can aid a line of philosoph…

The example abstracts cited in the article are particularly worrying to me. I would be interested in seeing if someone can explain why those papers are problems that smart people should be working on. To a very pro-science layperson they seem especially absurd.

Well, consider that the very point of philosophy is to approach a seemingly simple question or subject – say, "What should laws be like?" – and then probe deeper and deeper into that question, searching for irregularities that might reveal hidden facets to that question that we don't consider, either due to our own assumptions, social norms, or even in the way the question is phrased. That's what philosophy does really well and really rigorously – and it's why its greatest works are so notoriously frustrating; imagine 800 pages on what it means "to be" that expounds on things like "because we all die in time, time is an essential part of man's being" at extraordinary length.

Obviously, that summary I gave is an exaggerated parody – and that's the problem with judging a philosophical paper based on its abstract. "Is there a contradiction with atheists liking Bach?" is a simple question that might reveal very interesting insights at length. Remember that this isn't a magazine article, in which such a question will be insipid and asked only to provoke controversy and sales – in all likeliness, that question is asked to provoke further questions, further examination, that might lead to something truly provocative. But I can't know for sure, because I only have the abstract – and that's all this guy has either, and he knows that's all he has, which means this article is either self-promotion on the author's part, or it's proof that the author doesn't understand philosophy to a worrying extent. Probably a combination of the two.

I see a parallel between this discussion and the science vs. religion debates that frustrate reasonable people on either side. You can't enter a debate with another field by starting with the assumption that your side has all the answers, and should therefore be the absolute center of the discussion. You have to be able to acknowledge what the other side is good for, what they can do that you're incapable of, before you start to make any kind of meaningful critique. It's wrong to attack science without acknowledging what science is good at, it's wrong to attack religion without some understanding of what lies at the heart of religious practice, and it's wrong to attack philosophy for its pursuit of deep abstraction when that's precisely what makes philosophy so valuable.

Going after philosophy because it generates stupid abstracts is like going after science because it promotes nihilism: when you make that argument, you admit to knowing so little about the field you're attacking that essentially your critiques are invalid by default.

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