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I'm a USB-C Maximalist

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Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#271

Post by Tharre »

pmarreck wrote: post #266

Yes, but some cheap USB-C devices only charge when the other end is USB-A. This is not to spec, and to my knowledge this was a cost-cutting measure done by Chinese companies to cheapen manufacturing costs. So for that reason I CANNOT simply rely on USB-C, I also have to have a USB-C-to-A converter and a USB-A-to-C cable, which is of course ridiculous. Thanks, China.

The "cost" they're cutting of course being 2 simple resistors, that cost absolutely nothing. So less of a executive decision and more a case of whoever designed the board didn't do a quick google search to figure out how the connector works.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#272

Post by ploxiln »

greggsy wrote: post #231
Telaneo wrote: post #174

It's been a joy to not need to bring 3 chargers along when I travel. I think the only thing we're missing to make the USB-C experience perfect is cable labelling. It's unreasonable to make every cable perform to the max spec, but if we could standardise on some labelling or colours for cables that are charging-only, 480 mbit (usb 2 speed), 5 Gbit (usb 3 speed), 10 GB (usb 3.1 speed), 20 GB (usb 3.2 speed), plus whate…

I went down the rabbit hole of cable testers, and concluded that that thicker and stiffer almost always meant ‘better’ support for higher speed and charge rates. Anything braided is almost always junk. I don’t have a requirement for anything over 90w though, so I can generally get away with using whatever I have lying around.

The high data rate cables all need to be stiffer. You can find good 100w or 240w charging cables with good flexibility, so that's a good reason to keep usb-2 data-speed but high-power charging cables.

The measure of a good high-power cable is the resistance. You can gauge it with a usb test load, typical usb power meter, and a usb-pd trigger (all can be pretty cheap, often you can find the trigger functionality combined with one of the other two). Calculate voltage drop for a given current by measuring both sides of the cable, or at least compare different cables with similar load.

But I found a "USB Cable Checker 2" by BitTradeOne which will directly measure and show the resistance in milli-ohms, very convenient! A very good cable measures 150 to 250 mOhm, the worse ones are 3 or 4 times that (at which point this device over-ranges around 1000 mOhm). You can really tell the difference with how some phones and laptops will slow their current draw after voltage droops.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#273

Post by derideor »

wincy wrote: post #203
DimmieMan wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HDMI and display port are in a similar boat. Putting the spec on the connector would be so much help. Even purchasing them is a nightmare these days because everything says ultra super duper fast supreme and then the fine print says it's actually just 3.0 (or doesn't say at all sometimes on online storefronts). Multiple time's I've found myself in the store flipping around the box like a rubics cube trying to find th…

A huge problem for me, the only displayport 2.1a cable I’ve found that works for my RTX 5090 + 240hz uncompressed HDR 4K monitor came with the monitor. It’s amazing that it’s pushing around 80gbps through that wire and it’s an incredible visual experience.

Gods, this is giving me flashbacks. I had to find a usb-c to display port 1.4a cable for my Gsync Ultimate screen with 240hz. I tried out I think 10 different cables, before I found one that actually worked....

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#274

Post by zamadatix »

crooked-v wrote: post #218
swah wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not buy only 100W power and data cables?

That would be USB4 cables. They do have the problem of being awkwardly thick and stiff if you're using them for a lot of things.

My thin ones are crap but convenient, thick ones are good but... thick. Gets me by without much effort.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#275

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

firloop wrote: post #227
gumby wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I scan the emarker on every USB C that comes into the house and add a p-touch label. I chuck out power-only and ultra baseline (60 W/USB 2 cables) with no marker or resistors. Power-only cables could be handy when traveling as they are essentially a condom, but they can only charge slowly and I always have a better cable with me. I wouldn’t mind a PD aware charge-only device but inquire require some MITM circuitry an…

Some cheaper devices I have (e.g. rechargeable LED light strip) _only_ charge via power-only cables. Was maddening when I realized I had thrown out all but one of the cables that can charge it.

More often than not these are usually cheap Chinese devices that are expecting a USB-C to USB-A (power-only) cable, because they're actually USB-A devices, with USB-A circuitry, modified slightly to appear as if they're USB-C.

Basically they skipped out on building power negotiation smarts that are required to support real USB-C charging, and instead just swapped out the physical connector.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#276

Post by Tharre »

wtallis wrote: post #261
Telaneo wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then, I've had success with older HDMI and DP cables up to fairly high bandwidths. It's only on a longer cable and a 4K screen, as well as one 1440p screen that was just really picky for some reason, that I've had issues. Meanwhile, the instant I want to transfer a non-trivial amount of bytes, USB 2 speeds come and make my life worse than it needs to be (or at least it did before I sat down, found decent speedy…

The critical difference is that USB versions keep adding new wires and active components, while the display cables largely stick to tightening the analog signal integrity requirements. Whether an old HDMI cable works for a new display is largely a question of how high the data rate is for the new resolution and refresh rate, vs how much the manufacturer of the cable overshot their analog bandwidth target.

No? Passive fully-featured USB-C cables had the same amount of wires and active components, which really is just the e-marker chip, since day one. The same 5 Gbps cable can now do 20 Gbps if the cable was made well enough.

Active cables are a different story of course, but that's the same for HDMI cables.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#277

Post by Tharre »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #275
firloop wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some cheaper devices I have (e.g. rechargeable LED light strip) _only_ charge via power-only cables. Was maddening when I realized I had thrown out all but one of the cables that can charge it.

More often than not these are usually cheap Chinese devices that are expecting a USB-C to USB-A (power-only) cable, because they're actually USB-A devices, with USB-A circuitry, modified slightly to appear as if they're USB-C. Basically they skipped out on building power negotiation smarts that are required to support real USB-C charging, and instead just swapped out the physical connector.

They skipped out on literally 2 resistors. That's it, that's all that is required for real USB-C charging.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#278

Post by zamadatix »

rootusrootus wrote: post #59
jonhohle wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the vast majority of things I need to power or charge, dumb USB charging is fine, and I have a 10-port Anker “IQ” charger that works great for most of those things. Why doesn’t the equivalent USB-C charger exist? I don’t need 65W on each port. I just needs lots of ports for gadgets that can trickle charge for hours at night (4 kids, lots of devices). I mostly want to standardize on USB-C host cables, but no one m…

I've seen 1000W (or so they claim) 10 port USB-C chargers on Amazon. Not Anker, just a no name Chinese brand I am not going to trust. But they do seem to exist. Like the sibling comment says, I assume it's because people expect USB-C charging capabilities to be a lot higher.

Do you believe the 16 TB uSD cards from no name Chinese brands on Amazon as well? If so, I have a bridge to sell - limited time offer!

500W (with 1 port being true 240 W) is the highest legitimate one I've run across - and I search often for real alternatives to buy. Even bulky GaN PC PSUs selling for $500 can't exceed 700W without assisted cooling due to efficiency->heat reasons.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#279

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

qurren wrote: post #97
chaosharmonic wrote: post #15

I too am a USB-C maximalist, but with a handful of differences from OP: - You lose me at "toothbrush." I don't want personal care items that have internal batteries at all , because they'll eventually die on me while the device itself (brush heads notwithstanding) is otherwise perfectly functional. I'd much rather keep rechargeable AA(A)s on hand for that kind of stuff. (I still haven't found a good electric razor fo…

I break about 1 USB-C plug a week. They are simply not designed well for real people who do real things in the world, including physical work, exercise, hiking, woodworking, biking, and the like. They are designed by someone in a corporate office who just never gets out to see the real world. Here's how the last few broke: * Phone with typical inadequate battery + external portable battery pack plugged in, shoved in…

Tangentially related anecdote: I used to break tons of stuff all the time (my whole family growing up did), and I just assumed that all things just have finite lifespans, until I started dating someone who's tremendously careful and called me out on it. Then for a long time I just assumed I was a clumsier than average person.

Then eventually I finally was forced to admit that I'd just been choosing to move about the world as a bit of a careless brute who treats my things with disrespect, and by being more intentional with the way I move about the world, all my stuff suddenly lasts 10x longer.

Interestingly, I'm not sure it's worth the trade-off, but it's been kind of wild to experience.

Re: I'm a USB-C Maximalist

#280

Post by wtallis »

Tharre wrote: post #276
wtallis wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The critical difference is that USB versions keep adding new wires and active components, while the display cables largely stick to tightening the analog signal integrity requirements. Whether an old HDMI cable works for a new display is largely a question of how high the data rate is for the new resolution and refresh rate, vs how much the manufacturer of the cable overshot their analog bandwidth target.

No? Passive fully-featured USB-C cables had the same amount of wires and active components, which really is just the e-marker chip, since day one. The same 5 Gbps cable can now do 20 Gbps if the cable was made well enough. Active cables are a different story of course, but that's the same for HDMI cables.

I was including USB history before USB-C, because HDMI and DisplayPort have been around much longer than USB-C. And limiting the discussion to "fully-featured USB-C cables" is ignoring most of the real problems.
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