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New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

reuters.com

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Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#211

Post by afavour »

pj_mukh wrote: post #209
afavour wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sooo, how does that change in New York in a year? You've mostly re-inforced my point It won’t change at all, of course. I think maybe you don’t understand the reason for the moratorium. A year can be taken to assess what effects are likely to come about and how acceptable they are. Create some guidelines. Right now data centers are being built with no consideration for the effect on the surrounding area and, big su…

"A year can be taken to assess what effects are likely to come about and how acceptable they are. Create some guidelines. " Yea, and my bet is none of this is going to happen. There is simply no incentive to make it happen. Why would a government take all these steps? What's the incentive? Much easier to just keep things the way they are, or more likely, simply re-sense the political headwinds in a year. "The right w…

Republicans are still remarkably pro business. Fable is the exception.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#212

Post by CrimsonRain »

inigyou wrote: post #187
CrimsonRain wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do data centers need to be taxed separately? Why does the local community need their take from that economic activity? What are they even providing? Are they providing land, electricity, and hardware for free to the data center?

The xAI one is emitting so much NOx pollution that it gave entire towns asthma for the rest of their lives and nobody is compensating them for it. People in Georgia are being threatened with no electricity next year because it's all going to data centers.

Has nothing to do with taxing dc.

Sue them for pollution/hazard.

So raise the prices? Build more capacity? If you elect politician who can't plan ahead for a simple thing as electricity grid capacity...who's to blame?

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#213

Post by CrimsonRain »

jbm wrote: post #130
CrimsonRain wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do data centers need to be taxed separately? Why does the local community need their take from that economic activity? What are they even providing? Are they providing land, electricity, and hardware for free to the data center?

If human activity is taxed, AI activity will be taxed. It's just inevitable. It will be taxed at multiple levels until we figure out the right level to do so. Some of it will be detrimental to AI development but that's normal - in Canada we had a hidden manufacturing sales tax until the 80s which made exports more expensive. A technology that puts X% of people out of work is going to be taxed.

DCs do much more than AI.

AI companies are already paying tax.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#214

Post by CrimsonRain »

fra wrote: post #121
CrimsonRain wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do data centers need to be taxed separately? Why does the local community need their take from that economic activity? What are they even providing? Are they providing land, electricity, and hardware for free to the data center?

For two reasons: 1. They create externalities 2. They generate an economic flux that can be taxed

So where were you in last 20 years asking for tax on DCs?

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#215

Post by rainsford »

CrimsonRain wrote: post #118
whartung wrote: post #97

How are (can) datacenters be taxed? Mind, I don't know, but normally you put in a business, or factory, etc. the state can tax the economic output of the factory. The factory builds things, sells things, they tax the sales of those things. Local employees get salaries that can be taxed, etc. Of course, property taxes on the land and improvements. But how does that work with a datacenter? If I pay $5 for an EC2 instan…

Why do data centers need to be taxed separately? Why does the local community need their take from that economic activity? What are they even providing? Are they providing land, electricity, and hardware for free to the data center?

At the very least they take limited land in a community that could instead be used for any number of different things. If they're not taxed, they provide essentially no benefit, economic or otherwise, to the community in which they're located. Basically any other use of the land would provide more localized benefit by providing more jobs, housing, places for residents to shop or things for them to do, etc, all of which benefit the community more than a data center.

Of course data centers aren't just taking up land. They also in many cases produce massive amounts of noise, water and electricity usage, and are visually pretty unappealing to have in your backyard. And there is essentially no upside. Data centers aren't like shopping malls. You might benefit from them existing, but you don't benefit from them existing right next door. If they're not providing at least some tax benefits to the community, I can think of zero reason any community would want them.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#216

Post by rainsford »

CrimsonRain wrote: post #214
fra wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For two reasons: 1. They create externalities 2. They generate an economic flux that can be taxed

So where were you in last 20 years asking for tax on DCs?

I can't speak for the person you're replying to, but data center growth wasn't massively exploding 20 years ago.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#217

Post by rainsford »

afavour wrote: post #3

It’s a one year moratorium. I don’t see a problem with this. A lot of voters are concerned about the impacts data centers will have, those concerns are not entirely unwarranted. We don’t actually have to be moving at breakneck speeds, the AI companies just want you to think we do. A pause to investigate seems warranted.

I also feel like there has been very little discussion of a localized benefit of data centers compared to the negative impacts. As someone who uses AI and other services that need data centers, I certainly understand why they need to exist. I have not heard a compelling argument for why they need to exist anywhere near me. I'm generally anti-NIMBY, but usually with the understanding that there is actually benefit to certain things existing in my proverbial backyard. If that argument exists for data centers I've yet to hear it.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#218

Post by cogman10 »

newguy1000 wrote: post #193
inigyou wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then afterwards the electricity gets shut off to everyone who isn't a data center? That's what Georgia is threatening right now.

Do you ACTUALLY think that's a possibility? It's silly

Yes? Why wouldn't it be?

These things consume a pretty huge amount of power, more than a steel mill. If they are haphazardly put on a grid without the generation support then the power company has 2 options, brown out or selective blackouts (or risk tripping the whole grid).

It's not silly that an already stressed grid (I'll remind you that NYC just recently asked its citizens to turn the AC to 78 to avoid a brown out) might be pushed over the edge with a new datacenter.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#219

Post by cogman10 »

rainsford wrote: post #217
afavour wrote: post #3

It’s a one year moratorium. I don’t see a problem with this. A lot of voters are concerned about the impacts data centers will have, those concerns are not entirely unwarranted. We don’t actually have to be moving at breakneck speeds, the AI companies just want you to think we do. A pause to investigate seems warranted.

I also feel like there has been very little discussion of a localized benefit of data centers compared to the negative impacts. As someone who uses AI and other services that need data centers, I certainly understand why they need to exist. I have not heard a compelling argument for why they need to exist anywhere near me. I'm generally anti-NIMBY, but usually with the understanding that there is actually benefit to…

Yup. This is my main issue with these datacenters. They have a few major local negatives (higher electrical prices, potentially high pollution, noise) and almost no real benefit due to their location.

I experience no difference when I run my LLM either here in the US or in the EU or even in China.

So why should these be given any special treatment and tax benefits? They don't really create jobs locally (beyond the initial construction) and they won't bring in any sort of tax revenue beyond what you could get from property taxes. That makes them just a general nuisance. They are much like sewage or landfills, they serve a purpose and are needed but boy would I never want one near me (unless the company actually ends up paying for my community).

It certainly doesn't help that AI CEOs just can't help but to larp as Captain Planet supervillans when giving public talks to investors.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#220

Post by cogman10 »

gruez wrote: post #208
kotaKat wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They keep negotiating payments-in-lieu-of-taxes to dodge fair tax rates and grab special treatment, so we do see a loss in value there over decade(s) in many cases.

>so we do see a loss in value there over decade(s) in many cases. Source? Maybe it was the case 10 years ago, but today with all the datacenter backlash it's hard to imagine anyone giving sweetheart deals to them.

10 years ago? Several states have 0% property taxes on the books for data centers, Utah being one of them.

That's a big reason for the Box Elder data center.

https://gpuleaseindex.com/incentives/utah

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