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New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

reuters.com

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Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#201

Post by orangedog »

overfeed wrote: post #196
orangedog wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's just tiring to hear the same meme putdowns about how this Winter we're all going to suffer when we probably have less brownouts etc than a lot of other places. I remember 2011 but I didn't actually have any issues with a power failure it was just extremely icy. These are freak weather events, generally the grid holds up fine. I'm not saying we don't have issues but it is kind o foverblown.

> I didn't actually have any issues with a power failure it was just extremely icy. Maybe ask someone who lost power - or lost a loved one - and find out if they are as sanguine about the icy conditions. People died. "It's not a big deal since I wasn't personally affected" isn't a scalable position, but it is a quintessentially Texan attitude.

I didn't say that.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#203

Post by ianm218 »

newaccountman2 wrote: post #179
ianm218 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People move towards places with growing economic opportunities. New York heavily restricts construction and infrastructure projects of all kinds. The tech and finance elite will stay here but normal people who are trying to make a decent living in construction and similar trades will end up following opportunities. NYC population is declining after all [1] largely because the city would rather treat housing as a scar…

> NYC population is declining after all [1] largely because the city would rather treat housing as a scarce resource for them to divy up than something to increase the supply of. The Mayor is literally implementing stuff to build more affordable housing. I agree that ultimately a lot less regulation is needed to make it easier to simply build, but your take on it belongs in a New York Post editorial. It's not serious…

Affordable housing is literally treating housing a scarce resource for the state to divide up. It’s good for people who are already in the system or able to get into it but bad for everyone else. We just need radically more market rate supply rather than trying more affordable housing which has been a total failure. It is time to try supply side reforms.

> Your dichotomy is bullshit.

Middle class is the 25th-55th percentile of income. Most workers in tech/ finance/ law are above the 55th and most people in the trades are below it. Teachers and the like aren’t going to directly benefit from construction, but would atleast benefit from property taxes.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#204

Post by dlubarov »

overfeed wrote: post #168
dlubarov wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - there seem to be a lot of pretenses which don't actually justify banning a particular industry. If environmental concerns were the real issue, we'd be talking about how to tweak those regulations. If power distribution was the real issue, we'd be talking about the economics of power companies, and tweaking the rules about billing for infrastructure upgrades. It's strange how we're suddenly talking about things…

> If environmental concerns were the real issue, we'd be talking about how to tweak those regulations. If power distribution was the real issue, we'd be talking about the economics of power companies Who's "we" in this statement? It can't be be the general public because historically, legally, and morally, the persons causing the problem are responsible for addressing it. When CFC refrigerants were damaging the ozone…

My point is essentially that there are no new problems here, just the usual problems that we already have regulatory frameworks to address. Sometimes those existing frameworks are imperfect, e.g. in some states, power companies can't charge large customers for many of the infrastructure upgrades needed to serve them.

There's no novel problem here that any particular industry would need to find novel solutions for. Just some states ought to tweak their rules about the costs of distribution infrastructure upgrades.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#205

Post by twoodfin »

inigyou wrote: post #186
twoodfin wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there’s plenty of places where you could plausibly build a data center, so the leverage that localities have to insist on high tax rates is limited.

Then it can't be that bad to move it to another state, right?

Nope. Northern Virginia communities, for example, have seen significant budgetary wins from data center buildout over the past decade.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#206

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

Text-only, no Javascript:

   elinks -dump http://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/AA27UmDH \
   |sed '1,/\"body\"/d;/readTime/,$d' \
   |tr -d '\134'
"July 14 (Reuters) - New York became the first U.S. state on Tuesday to halt construction of large new data centers, imposing a one-year moratorium as concerns grow that the facilities driving the artificial-intelligence boom are raising power costs, straining water supplies and burdening local communities."

More states to come?

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#207

Post by afavour »

pj_mukh wrote: post #73
afavour wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are no objective concerns to be met Are you sure? Most of the objections I've seen center around environmental impact and effect on residential energy pricing in the surrounding area. Both of these seem to be to be objectively measurable. > the data centers will be built elsewhere in more politically impoverished states What does "politically impoverished" mean? I'd say more "politically permissive" states wo…

"environmental impact and effect on residential energy pricing" Sooo, how does that change in New York in a year? You've mostly re-inforced my point. And specifically the bill doesn't use any automatic re-enablement criteria, so data centers are basically dead in the state. Realistically, this is a canard, AI scares people and environmental impact is a lever to use to stop it. Ask yourself this: if this was a new For…

> Sooo, how does that change in New York in a year? You've mostly re-inforced my point

It won’t change at all, of course. I think maybe you don’t understand the reason for the moratorium. A year can be taken to assess what effects are likely to come about and how acceptable they are. Create some guidelines. Right now data centers are being built with no consideration for the effect on the surrounding area and, big surprise, people don’t like that.

> Banning Data centers is a horsehoe populism issue, the right wing loves it too.

Eh. The right wing is far more responsive to business wants than it is to populist demands. Right wing politicians do not like banning data centers even if right wing voters do.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#208

Post by gruez »

kotaKat wrote: post #136
twoodfin wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property tax is the dominant method for local governments to capture the value of hosted commercial activity. You don’t need a high rate to capture plenty of value out of a $multi-billion data center. The problem is mostly on the electricity side, with highly regulated utilities not prepared (on the regulator or regulated sides) to respond to such a large shock to demand. Utilities are typically regulated at the stat…

They keep negotiating payments-in-lieu-of-taxes to dodge fair tax rates and grab special treatment, so we do see a loss in value there over decade(s) in many cases.

>so we do see a loss in value there over decade(s) in many cases.

Source? Maybe it was the case 10 years ago, but today with all the datacenter backlash it's hard to imagine anyone giving sweetheart deals to them.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#209

Post by pj_mukh »

afavour wrote: post #207
pj_mukh wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"environmental impact and effect on residential energy pricing" Sooo, how does that change in New York in a year? You've mostly re-inforced my point. And specifically the bill doesn't use any automatic re-enablement criteria, so data centers are basically dead in the state. Realistically, this is a canard, AI scares people and environmental impact is a lever to use to stop it. Ask yourself this: if this was a new For…

> Sooo, how does that change in New York in a year? You've mostly re-inforced my point It won’t change at all, of course. I think maybe you don’t understand the reason for the moratorium. A year can be taken to assess what effects are likely to come about and how acceptable they are. Create some guidelines. Right now data centers are being built with no consideration for the effect on the surrounding area and, big su…

"A year can be taken to assess what effects are likely to come about and how acceptable they are. Create some guidelines. "

Yea, and my bet is none of this is going to happen. There is simply no incentive to make it happen. Why would a government take all these steps? What's the incentive? Much easier to just keep things the way they are, or more likely, simply re-sense the political headwinds in a year.

"The right wing is far more responsive to business wants"

This is all pre-Trump thinking. Trump just randomly banned Fable, tonnes of MAGA politicos running on the "ban datacenter" ticket, all this is simply no longer true.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#210

Post by inigyou »

twoodfin wrote: post #205
inigyou wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it can't be that bad to move it to another state, right?

Nope. Northern Virginia communities, for example, have seen significant budgetary wins from data center buildout over the past decade.

Those previously completed projects in NV are completely unlike the ones currently being proposed and protested
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