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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#231

Post by pibaker »

amelius wrote: post #101
pibaker wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the engines you mentioned are nearly as approachable as roblox when it comes to making a 3D game with little programming or art skills. Don't get me wrong. I agree roblox is a very shady operation, but that does not erase the fact that their platform is unmatched when it comes to letting kids make games.

> Don't get me wrong. I agree roblox is a very shady operation, but that does not erase the fact that their platform is unmatched when it comes to letting kids make games. Ok, well then, toss your hands in the air and throw away all your principles then, I suppose.

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#232

Post by theeyescanner »

brabel wrote: post #214
Ajedi32 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can also vote out my government. You can't. Not if you're in the minority. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. You what you as an individual most certainly can do is stop using Roblox. Not ideal, but way easier than moving to a new country.

Tyranny of the majority is ... democracy?!

The slave aristocracy of the Confederate States of America, and members only Communist Party of China are both democracies.

What we consider democracy went through a LOT of iteration, and continues to this day. Representative first-past-the-post is a form of democracy that can have the unfortunate side effect of the minority of the electorate establishing a tyranny of the majority. There is a lot of scholarship on how to make democratic systems more democratic.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#233

Post by doyouhearyrslf »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#234

Post by onetokeoverthe »

doyouhearyrslf wrote: post #233
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

[flagged]

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#235

Post by sajithdilshan »

wsng wrote: post #180
sajithdilshan wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re proposing works only if the government is always trustworthy and abiding by the rules. But there has been cases that ICE agents in US was able to track down people from their social media posts and in the past Nazis used the address registration lists to track down Jews for deportation to concentration camps. We don’t know what EU would become in 5 to 10 years in the future, and I would rather not have an…

They have this information anyway if you have an EU passport or an identity card. The government app allows you to share selected properties of these documents with third parties.

It’s not only government shares that info, the government can keep track on with which parties they shared that info and for what purpose.

As an example if I’m obliged to share my ID data via government to open a twitter account how would I know that the government would not link my twitter account to my ID and later use that info keep track of me and prosecute?

People would think that it would never happen, but not long ago that actually happened in East Germany. The Stasi kept track/files on almost every East German and this would be a digital version of the same thing

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#236

Post by fluoridation »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #229
fluoridation wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Inherently give you the right"? Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. Nothing inherently gives rights, rights are given by agreement. If people agree that majorities can impose their opinion, then they can.

> Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. We're getting pretty deep into philosophical territory now, but I disagree. Human rights, to the extent they exist at all, are necessarily inherent properties of individuals. E.g. If the majority decides people with dark skin are subhuman and therefore have no rights, the majority is most certainly not correct about that, because right…

>Rights, to the extent they exist at all, are necessarily inherent properties of individuals.

What's sad is that there's a formulation that's actually correct. Rights are an inherent property of societies (or stable ones, at least). Note that I'm saying rights in an abstract sense, not necessarily any specific set of rights. Not every society will value the same things the same way.

>E.g. If the majority decides black people are subhuman and therefore have no rights, the majority is most certainly not correct about that, because rights are not defined by the majority opinion.

So it's an objective fact that they're incorrect? I.e. they can be shown to be incorrect without having to ask anyone's opinion? Okay, prove it.

>The U.S. Declaration of Independence put it like this:

That's an opinion. It's perfectly fine to think these things are so obvious they don't need to be justified, but I don't agree that that's true, even if I subjectively hold the same opinion.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#237

Post by microtonal »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #229
fluoridation wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Inherently give you the right"? Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. Nothing inherently gives rights, rights are given by agreement. If people agree that majorities can impose their opinion, then they can.

> Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. We're getting pretty deep into philosophical territory now, but I disagree. Human rights, to the extent they exist at all, are necessarily inherent properties of individuals. E.g. If the majority decides people with dark skin are subhuman and therefore have no rights, the majority is most certainly not correct about that, because right…

endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [...] rights are inherent,

Only if you believe in a creator that determined these right, which is not rooted in fact, but solely belief.

Personally, I do not believe a particular ethics exist as an absolute/scientific truth. It is just that some amount cooperation is generally better for everyone and virtually all humans want to avoid pain and seek happiness.

Even though I was a convinced utilitarianist when I was young, I think Kant's categorical imperatives are more powerful now: you should act only according to principles you would want everyone to adopt as a universal law. Or Rawls' original position [1].

Even though this might sound like an off-topic philosophical debate, I think it is very relevant to democracy. Purely egoism-based democracy would trample on the rights of minorities, etc. But in a democracy based on these principles, the majority would vote to project minorities, etc.

I am not sure how you would modify democracy to align with this. I think it is for a large part of education. E.g. if everyone thinks every choice is a zero-sum game (my loss is another's win and vise versa), democracy will go in a very dark direction.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#238

Post by microtonal »

creaturemachine wrote: post #155
a2128 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Roblox they have a horrible system where they estimate your age and only allow you to interact with people of a similar age, meaning if you verified your kid with your face then they'd only be able to interact with adults and not other kids. At least that's the theory. It doesn't take a lot of effort to figure out how a predator could misuse this system to their advantage (which is why I call it horrib…

Predators have been using roblox since its inception, but I don't think they are doing age verification because of that. They're looking to expand into more adult experiences and, of all horrible ideas, dating.

I think it is much simpler: they are feeling regulatory pressure. In various countries there are increasingly strict laws that allow people to hold companies accountable for issues on their platform. By using age verification, they can increasingly move responsibility away.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#239

Post by iso1631 »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #229
fluoridation wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Inherently give you the right"? Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. Nothing inherently gives rights, rights are given by agreement. If people agree that majorities can impose their opinion, then they can.

> Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. We're getting pretty deep into philosophical territory now, but I disagree. Human rights, to the extent they exist at all, are necessarily inherent properties of individuals. E.g. If the majority decides people with dark skin are subhuman and therefore have no rights, the majority is most certainly not correct about that, because right…

> The U.S. Declaration of Independence put it like this:

The opinion of a few slave owners 250 years ago

> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal

For a given definition of "men"

> I concur with this perspective

Good for you. You have an opinion, doesn't make it a fact.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#240

Post by zh3 »

throw0101d wrote: post #202
zh3 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a purely tactical measure, we use the same older person (me) for age verification for all family members - zero failures so far and it poisons the well.

> As a purely tactical measure, we use the same older person (me) for age verification for all family members - zero failures so far and it poisons the well. Is there a 'break glass' workflow in case you are not available (e.g., health incident)?

We only do it for one-off age verification, not stuff that requires repeat authentication (those we simply don't use).
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