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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#221

Post by derefr »

Pfhortune wrote: post #173
skrebbel wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw we did that with Roblox too, but I hate it because Roblox Studio was a pretty damn fun collaborative gamedev experience. I mean his classmates argue with their parents about whether they can install TikTok (and most parents lose). Meanwhile I’m denying my son the right to make a game together with a friend. It’s so creative and so educative and I’m saying no to it. It sucks and I hate Roblox for making something…

There's plenty of ways to make games outside of Roblox. Maybe they could sit down together and work through some Löve2D or Godot tutorials? No one can take that away arbitrarily

I think GP meant “collaboratively” as in collaborating online through the game itself. The same way you might e.g. collaborate on a Google Doc.

“Sit down together” might be impractical here, if GP’s child’s friends are e.g. friends they made before a move, who are thus quite far away physically. Or friends with snobby parents who won’t let them come over to GP’s house for whatever dumb reason. Or friends with extra-curriculars such that their free time never lines up with GP’s kid’s free time—meaning that only async collaboration will work.

(That’s just a steelman position, though; in general I agree.)

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#222

Post by slopinthebag »

brabel wrote: post #214
Ajedi32 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can also vote out my government. You can't. Not if you're in the minority. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. You what you as an individual most certainly can do is stop using Roblox. Not ideal, but way easier than moving to a new country.

Tyranny of the majority is ... democracy?!

Yes? Democracy is essentially exactly that - tyranny of the majority. The reason why successful democracies have so many checks and balances, constitutions that uphold essential rights etc is because of this fact. Really the main benefit of democracy is that it prevents the government from doing things which are wildly unpopular. To the extent that it "gives the people power", that is neutered as much as possible to prevent the majority from going "hey, we don't want these people here" and committing democratic genocide or whatever.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#223

Post by SoftTalker »

elevation wrote: post #172
elevation wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older systems were imperfect and were understood to be. I've meet veterans who joined the Navy at 14 or 16. I've met many College students who can pass as old enough to buy alcohol, especially with a fake id. Dead people are sometimes registered to vote. We know this and have systems to try to catch these exceptions. But cellphone access is different; it's assumed to be perfect, but it's increasingly being moderated…

This year, an octogenarian friend got locked out of his android phone permanently. He had never had a PIN on his Samsung phone. It started when he signed up at a new bank, giving them his phone number. Somehow the bank enrolled his in their online banking system, which notified Samsung, who remotely initiated the "let's give your phone a pin" flow, presumably to protect him during online banking. (This happened witho…

I've never gotten banned but I've been moderated/throttled (even here with the occasional "you're posting too fast") quite often. The triggers on things happening too fast from the same IP address or session seem quite sensitive and thus when I'm doing anything critical such as online transactions I space them out by many minutes, which is inconvenient.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#224

Post by pluralmonad »

lexlambda wrote: post #21
iLoveOncall wrote: post #5

I agree with the sentiment but is there even any phone that doesn't run Android (or derivatives) or iOS and that can install modern "apps"?

You must realize, age verification is for more then just Googles Android apps. Such a strong new legal framework must consider consumer hardware actually in use: - Android variations Like GrapheneOS, Huawei's HarmonyOS, older phones running custom ROMs - Linux phones, which are sold in the EU and by EU companies - Desktop operating systems All of them can run Web Apps, and thus need age verification

Well, none of them _need_ age verification.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#225

Post by fluoridation »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #217
brabel wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tyranny of the majority is ... democracy?!

Unrestrained democracy, yes. Tyranny. People need to understand that having a majority opinion does not inherently give you the right to impose that opinion on everyone else. Such impositions must be done with extreme hesitancy and restraint. That's why many democratic countries have a constitution which prevents the government from restricting certain individual rights even in the face of popular opinion. But ultima…

"Inherently give you the right"? Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. Nothing inherently gives rights, rights are given by agreement. If people agree that majorities can impose their opinion, then they can.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#226

Post by alistairSH »

arrrg wrote: post #152
alistairSH wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ID chip? Is that something everybody in the EU (or whatever region) has? Is it just embedded in your driver license or passport? [I'm in the US, we're very ID-averse here, weird, but is what it is]

ID cards aren’t exactly super standardized inside the EU. German ID cards have a RFID chip which basically contains all the same info that’s printed on the outside (PIN protected). Smartphones can read that chip and the state as well as private businesses could in principle use this to do age verification – even the super minimal version of age verification that just asks for a certain age threshold and gets a binary…

Yeah, that sounds like the ideal solution.

Unfortunately, we can't even get states to commit to our RealID requirements[1] (which doesn't even add a chip/PIN, it only strengthens validation of documents submitted at the time of application for a driving license). And the notion of a national ID is anathema to large swaths of the population.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#227

Post by singingtoday »

I would never do this verification with my real face, and neither should anybody else. Kids get around this using video game character creators. You can too.

As a netizen it's your duty to avoid, oppose, and circumvent anything that forces you to use your real identity.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#228

Post by inigyou »

leonvoss wrote: post #192
inigyou wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we should protect the children and then they couldn't use the excuse

their parents won't protect them and everyone else has to pay for it. maybe they shouldn't have been allowed to have kids.

Nothing could possibly go wrong with eugenics

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#229

Post by Ajedi32 »

fluoridation wrote: post #225
Ajedi32 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrestrained democracy, yes. Tyranny. People need to understand that having a majority opinion does not inherently give you the right to impose that opinion on everyone else. Such impositions must be done with extreme hesitancy and restraint. That's why many democratic countries have a constitution which prevents the government from restricting certain individual rights even in the face of popular opinion. But ultima…

"Inherently give you the right"? Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people. Nothing inherently gives rights, rights are given by agreement. If people agree that majorities can impose their opinion, then they can.

> Rights are not inherent properties of facts, they're concessions between people.

We're getting pretty deep into philosophical territory now, but I disagree. Human rights, to the extent they exist at all, are necessarily inherent properties of individuals.

E.g. If the majority decides people with dark skin are subhuman and therefore have no rights, the majority is most certainly not correct about that, because rights are not defined by the majority opinion. They are inherent.

The U.S. Declaration of Independence put it like this:

> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

I concur with this perspective; rights are inherent and inalienable, and the purpose of democratic government is to secure those rights (which already exist), not to create them.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#230

Post by wat10000 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #138
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

We have had the need to prove age for hundreds of years. To buy alcohol. To drive a car. To vote. We depend on government-issued documents to do this. Not sure why anyone would really expect this to change just because it's online now.

Maybe hundred of years, singular. And reading/watching stuff in our own homes has never required any proof of age.
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