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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#181

Post by clickety_clack »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

I hear you on the overall privacy issues related to age verification with US Corps. My concern with government registries of personal information is related to things like:

- Netherlands, WWII: The Dutch civil registry meticulously recorded religion. It’s a major reason ~75% of Dutch Jews were killed, the highest rate in occupied Western Europe (vs ~25% in France, where records were poorer).

- US, Japanese internment: The Census Bureau provided block-level data on Japanese Americans in 1942 despite confidentiality guarantees; 2007 research showed individual names and addresses were shared too.

- Rwanda, 1994: Belgian colonial administrators had put ethnicity (Hutu/Tutsi) on national ID cards in the 1930s. Sixty years later those cards were the primary tool at genocide checkpoints.

There’s loads more. Europe may be safe now so it feels safe to give government this information. However, as shown in all the instances above, the information was collected for one reason and used for a wholly different reason when times changed.

Who knows what kinds of ethnicities, beliefs, behaviors or personal histories will be the focus of future regimes? It could be Roblox users, HN commenters, people who religiously repost x.com links as xcancel.com ones, anything. Whatever it is, they will have access to all the data on any system we allow them to record. This isn’t even a totally made up hypothetical from far away places, multiple governments in Europe were doing this kind of thing just decades ago. Historically speaking, we are all currently living in an unusually peaceful era, that will likely be temporary for many of us.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#182

Post by mghackerlady »

blop wrote: post #25

This is the elephant in the room regarding the big "digital sovereignty" talks in the EU. For the moment in the EU institutions the focus is mostly at the post-acceptance stage that everything must eventually migrate off US clouds. There is still some denial and hope that things will go back to "before" because it's going to be extremely costly to migrate, but at least high level EU civil servants start to see the st…

They could try and put money into funding Jolla/sailfish/whatever

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#183

Post by mghackerlady »

spaqin wrote: post #18

Funny how the worry of "digital exclusion" of the elders who would never be able to use a smartphone has been thrown out of the window in recent years.

And the youths who just... don't like smartphones. We exist

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#184

Post by mindslight »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

It doesn't have to be an either or dichotomy. For example, you could pass laws that make it illegal for an online game to demand age verification, identification, biometrics, etc. The main reason for any of this are some corporate attorneys justifying their own salaries based on "what if" and scaremongering. Regardless of how much personal information they succeed at demanding at this stage, or how [in]effective it is at addressing their claimed problems, they will be back again pushing for even more until they're actually told a hard "no".

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#185

Post by leonvoss »

SoftTalker wrote: post #138
skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

We have had the need to prove age for hundreds of years. To buy alcohol. To drive a car. To vote. We depend on government-issued documents to do this. Not sure why anyone would really expect this to change just because it's online now.

Hundreds? 200 years ago most people did not even have birth certificates. I can think of multiple famous examples of people who lived in Europe 500 to 800 years ago where we don't know their real age. In existing countries with poor state capacity, a lot of people don't have legitimate birth certificates and there is some evidence that they make up their age to some degree. For example on surveys in such countries there are too many people reporting round number ages. My experience in such countries is that you can find very young looking males riding motorcycles late at night around the city and anybody can buy alcohol. That's how it was in the United States "hundreds" of years ago. Please read a book.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#186

Post by mghackerlady »

Beijinger wrote: post #3

I am not a fan of such an "app". But the app is, as far as I understand, for things like Facebook, TikTok etc. Are there any other Operating Systems than iOS, Android or Android flavors? WebOS was nice but who is still using this? Symbian? Can you even use Social Media Apps with another phone OS?

SailfishOS, various incompatible blends of AOSP, KaiOS, and the Mocor based OSs run on various UNISOC based dumb phones

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#187

Post by ilumanty »

toasty228 wrote: post #135
ilumanty wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I said it before and I will say it again: We should invest our energy in the discussion whether to implement it and not already wonder how to implement it. Shifting this question benefits only those who want to force this upon us.

And what do "they" want? It's not like they don't already know your age, name, ID number or your browsing history

You will think twice before expressing your opinion in public.

Since you seem unfamiliar with the following, I will leave this here for your perusal:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#188

Post by generalizations »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

> a government supplied app, that’s guaranteed to protect my privacy

[citation needed]

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#189

Post by Fargren »

alistairSH wrote: post #125
roundabout-host wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "app" could be a good solution, if it didn't require attested Android or iOS. It could, for example, have me plug my ID chip into my GNU/Linux system and expose it with a standard protocol. That would be no problem. The problem is that they do not want such a way. In any case, I think that age gating would not be needed if the platforms were regulated to remove addictive recommendation algorithms.

ID chip? Is that something everybody in the EU (or whatever region) has? Is it just embedded in your driver license or passport? [I'm in the US, we're very ID-averse here, weird, but is what it is]

Many (all?) EU countries have a national ID card, and most (all?) IDs has a chip that can be used for secure document signing. I don't know if it can be used by itself for age verification. Maybe it would need to contrast your signature with some sort of DB that can retrieve your age...

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#190

Post by lifestyleguru »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

> this means sharing your 3D likeness with some sketchy American business who pinky promises to delete said data after. I don’t want random American tech companies to have my kids’ biometric info like that, able to sell it to whoever asks. Nor my passport or anything like that.

Actually the market leader app for scanning faces and documents is an Israeli company. They encourage to use mobile for scanning, for your convenience. They promise they delete the data. Yeah, if they're lying you can sue them in Israel.

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