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New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

reuters.com

141–150 of 242 posts

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#141

How are (can) datacenters be taxed? Mind, I don't know, but normally you put in a business, or factory, etc. the state can tax the economic output of the factory. The factory builds things, sells things, they tax the sales of those things. Local employees get salaries that can be taxed, etc. Of course, property taxes on the land and improvements. But how does that work with a datacenter? If I pay $5 for an EC2 instan…

The factory comparison is a moot point. This isn't about taxation.

Do you think the people hysterically screaming about a data center being built within a 500 mile radius of them would be okay with you building something that uses even more energy/resources like an actual factory?

We don't need unique taxation regimes for datacenters...they've existed as a concept for 70-80 years and are not novel in terms of their energy usage (they use less energy than traditional factories and less water than golf courses). These are all solved problems.

The solution to a fundamental lack of meaning in secular modernity will not come via taxation unfortunately. The doomsday religion that has captured the zeitgeist for the past 40 years is grasping at straws (datacenters) while trying to pivot from climate hysteria to AI hysteria given their end times prophecy did not come true. No amount of tax money will provide the same level of meaning as LARPing as an activist fighting in defense of an abstract fragile god (a femininely delicate "mother earth").

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#142
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "this" was a single new Ford plant, I would imagine that the local population around it would be having a similar conversation. If Ford announced that they were opening 10 new plants in every state, then yes, I imagine HackerNews would be having this exact conversation about it. The other factor is that these tech backed build outs seem to revel in flaunting regulations. More established businesses tend to at leas…

"Meanwhile, I opened Reuters this morning to this article" This is not a measure of anything, except "news that is popular". What you're looking for is fraction of datacenters that flaunt regulations, and I'm guessing you don't have those numbers and I'm betting they aren't that actually egregious compared to..anyone else building things. Again, I'm not saying this is bad politics, but let's not claim there is some a…

Sure, that's a fair point. You're right that I don't have those numbers, and I would be willing to be that at the moment, no one does.

> I'm betting they aren't that actually egregious compared to..anyone else building things

And I'm betting the opposite. As little as I trust the current industrial leaders, I trust Altman, Dario, Zuckerberg, and Musk far less. Maybe in 5 - 10 years when the dust is more settled we'll have a better picture.

Regardless, data centers are drawing moratoriums and regulation because they're the ones building things. If 500 new massive auto plants were planned to be built out in the next 5 years, they would also draw similar ire. It's only specific to data centers because that's what's actually happening, and we live in a world that is capable of responding to the actual events that are unfolding.

For what it's worth, I do agree with you about the politically impoverished communities bearing the brunt of our negative externalities. I would like it if we had regulation that priced in those externalities so we couldn't just dump them on communities that are unable to combat them.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#143
post #94

I consider myself pretty YIMBY, but the data center build outs are definitely starting to catch my eye. On one hand I want to stay YIMBY here, my typical problem with arguments against this stuff is that it looks at the resources as finite. We can/should build more power capacity. Water usage concerns already have solutions. The market should be allowed to do its thing. On the other hand I think there are looming pro…

> On one hand I want to stay YIMBY here

As far as I'm aware, the YIMBY "movement", or whatever you want to call it, is pretty squarely about housing development. It's not about saying yes to building anything and everything, but saying yes to new housing in particular.

For example, https://newyorkyimby.com/ is pretty much exclusively about housing.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sea water would have to be piped to places like Dallas, whereas much of Finland's people/data centers are closer to the shoreline. A solution that works in certain places does not generally work everywhere.

There's no need to build them in Dallas. Just keep them near the shoreline. The only reason you have so many data centers in North Jersey is so high frequency traders can make their calls 0.02ms before their competitors on the NYSE. For an average user, the 1ms ping between Dallas and Corpus Christi is not a problem.

We have a home in Houston. Over by the big gates down Sunset.

I have no particular objection to building datacenters there.

All that said, I think you're being real hand-wave-y here. The climate in Houston is materially different than it is in Dallas. So there's likely a reason these companies have been locating their enormously expensive assets where they have been locating them.

Houston floods. Often.

Houston gets hit by Hurricanes.

Houston is hot and humid with relatively high ground water tables.

Don't even get me started on the power and the durability issues arising from the use of sea water.

There's a lot to work out there. You put what you can afford to lose in Houston, but you don't bet the farm on coastal Texas. You just can't do that if you want resilient infrastructure.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#145
We should build more data centers. Provided we extract as a political concession UBI so that the LLMs that run in these places, which are trained on a public corpus and will doubtlessly increasingly eliminate the bargaining power of millions of Americans, do not primarily benefit only their already fabulously wealthy owners.

We can build a better society in which this UBI is scaled as LLMs take over more of the economy. Otherwise, we are clearly headed for more shocks to the American political system as increasingly dubious figures create more phantoms (poor day laborers are "taking your job", China is to blame for American companies taking advantage of "free trade") which will keep tipping towards outright fascism ("enemy of the people", ICE executing people in the streets) to blame for our fundamental societal issues that apparently no one is interested in solving - the societal affects of transformative economic shifts - which no, cannot be stopped or postponed or placed in moratorium indefinitely.

We might as well all push for this now with highly consequential elections approaching over the next 2 - 3 years. Because the insanity will only get worse. We've seen this pattern before. The famous fascists of the 20th century weren't born that way and their path was not inevitable. Many of them actually humorously careened from something more like "far left" communism to fascism as they tried to figure out what would stick in trying to appeal to a world wrought with the consequences of war and economic disruption - delayed affects of the industrial revolution. Don't just try to halt the LLM revolution - you cannot, and you will fail - but be clear about what your demands are.

Moratoriums should have some sense of acceptance criteria or demands. They should not be ways for politicians to simply delay the inevitable because they have no good answers. I think these concerns about power consumption are excuses to deal with the real problems. It's not like energy consumption is thought of as intrinsically bad by the people pushing for these bans. I think LLMs could ultimately be better for society than my neighbor's spotless F-150. It's clear the antagonism to these data centers comes from the inequities around how the gains will be distributed. Ultimately state moratoriums are also ineffective because they will just move to another state, so people in New York will lose in the short term (or benefit - depending on what exactly you object to), but either way we all suffer in the longterm. Make UBI a demand of people running for national office that want your vote.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#146

Some guy floated the idea of putting in a small datacenter in the nearby city and asked for public comment. The next town hall had a huge turnout and multiple people got kicked out for rushing the podium. Meanwhile, people are also protesting and suing to try and stop the nearby solar farm construction. What I'm wondering is why can't we have this level of enthusiasm for actual environmental reform and the transition…

With datacenters there is a huge amount of ragebait in the news and social media. People are anxious about jobs and reporters and influencers are cashing in on that anxiety by running headlines that imply doom. Datacenters are hugely problematic. But, everywhere I go I see media and commenters exaggerating, implying, assuming, or just making up outrageous claims. But, it's the hot topic right now and outrage drives the clicks that pays the bills. So, ragebait it is.

We solar, it's clear to me that Exon and friends have been funding anti-green-energy politicians and propaganda for decades. They knew full well that greenhouse gases would wreck the world. And, they new they could have transitioned to actually being "Beyond Petroleum". But, the profit margins would not have been as high. So, instead they are spending billions to convince everyone to let them keep wrecking the world for a few more decades.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#147
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> El Paso has "major" connections to New Mexico. El Paso is not part of the Texas grid (ERCOT): https://www.epa.gov/green-power-markets/us-grid-regions Neither are the panhandle nor the northeastern portion.

GGP didn't say ERCOT, they said "Texas". Which further demonstrates how ignorant it is to say there are "no major connections".

Here's some reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Interconnection

Most of Texas is on this grid, not connected to any other states. The total amount of power that can flow between the Texas Interconnect and the rest of the US grid is a small fraction of the Texas grid's demand. That was the point being made by the original commenter.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property tax is the dominant method for local governments to capture the value of hosted commercial activity. You don’t need a high rate to capture plenty of value out of a $multi-billion data center. The problem is mostly on the electricity side, with highly regulated utilities not prepared (on the regulator or regulated sides) to respond to such a large shock to demand. Utilities are typically regulated at the stat…

They keep negotiating payments-in-lieu-of-taxes to dodge fair tax rates and grab special treatment, so we do see a loss in value there over decade(s) in many cases.

Sure, there’s plenty of places where you could plausibly build a data center, so the leverage that localities have to insist on high tax rates is limited.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas is the only state in the lower 48 that has no major connections to neighboring power grids. That means growing energy demand in Texas must be met by new power generation in Texas. Texas has not improved energy efficiency standards since the 2021 blackout, and have resisted all attempts at increasing the governance of the gas generation. The Electric Reliability Council of Texas' "Capacity, Demand and Reserves r…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Interconnection > The Texas Interconnection is tied to the Eastern Interconnection with a 220 MW DC tie near Oklaunion, and a 600 MW DC tie near Monticello, and is tied to NERC (North American Electric Reliability Corporation) systems in Mexico with a 300 MW DC tie near McAllen, and a 100 MW VFT tie near Laredo.[29] There is one AC tie switch in Dayton, Texas

Including in-flight projects, that totals several GW. Texas demand today is pretty low for noon - clouds and rain in much of the state, and we're at 70 GW.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That happened in 2021 and we haven't had similar issues since. I haven't experienced a power grid failure since then.

According to Google, Texas currently has about 87GW of peak capacity & a data center production pipeline that will require 75-100GW. So the state will have to basically double its peak capacity to supply power to all those new data centers.

They have a very strong solar buildout going on, and they don't care how many environmentalists they piss off to get them built, ironically.
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