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New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

reuters.com

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Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#81

Post by freejazz »

jeffbee wrote: post #51
cmiles8 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah no. Almost everything people are pushing back against is branded as AI data center expansion. Moving to the cloud doesn’t need net new data centers being build… that’s just workloads moving from one data center to another.

Obviously you're welcome to whatever beliefs comfort you, but most data centers that are anywhere near anyone are not related to AI, largely because AI applications are not very sensitive to latency and don't need to be near users. The specific one in Hayward I mentioned is advertised for corporate IT, as is another one in Pittsburg (California). Anyway the projects should not be adjudicated based on what happens ins…

But we are talking about new data centers that are usually being built for the exact purpose of housing AI facilities? I'm not sure why you are being so obtuse about this point. Stating what already exists in data centers in general misses the point, either in ignorance or you are just being disingenuous. Given that you don't seem ignorant, it leaves the rest of us with the belief it'd only be the latter.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#82

Post by prpl »

weberer wrote: post #69
piltdownman wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas is the only state in the lower 48 that has no major connections to neighboring power grids. That means growing energy demand in Texas must be met by new power generation in Texas. Texas has not improved energy efficiency standards since the 2021 blackout, and have resisted all attempts at increasing the governance of the gas generation. The Electric Reliability Council of Texas' "Capacity, Demand and Reserves r…

>in a climate where passive-cooling isn't viable Chips can also be water cooled, and Texas borders an endless supply of water in the Gulf of America.

Are you being serious or sarcastic?

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#83

Post by PaywallBuster »

piltdownman wrote: post #52
ecshafer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many of the data centers are being built with natural gas generators on site, and they are using excess gas from the oil drilling.

Texas is the only state in the lower 48 that has no major connections to neighboring power grids. That means growing energy demand in Texas must be met by new power generation in Texas. Texas has not improved energy efficiency standards since the 2021 blackout, and have resisted all attempts at increasing the governance of the gas generation. The Electric Reliability Council of Texas' "Capacity, Demand and Reserves r…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Interconnection

> The Texas Interconnection is tied to the Eastern Interconnection with a 220 MW DC tie near Oklaunion, and a 600 MW DC tie near Monticello, and is tied to NERC (North American Electric Reliability Corporation) systems in Mexico with a 300 MW DC tie near McAllen, and a 100 MW VFT tie near Laredo.[29] There is one AC tie switch in Dayton, Texas

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#84

Post by MC995 »

georgemcbay wrote: post #12
baby wrote: post #2

I've been very curious about these, because of course these are measures that are anti-tech in a number of ways (or at least unpopular in the tech circle). I have trouble understanding why Sanders has decided to be vocal about these, especially as he's been on the right side of the societal debate fence since forever. My guess is that he cares more about what AI is going to do for the common people, and he knows that…

> I have trouble understanding why Sanders has decided to be vocal about these Perhaps the majority of people in Vermont want him to be vocal about it and he is simply doing his actual job. AI is wildly unpopular outside of our little tech bubble.

> AI is wildly unpopular outside of our little tech bubble.

That goes against my personal experience. It's only people in this small tech bubble that hate it.

In the broader space people love it. I know plenty of people 50+ who use it as their search engine now, people who use it for relationship advice, my wife works with someone who claims to be dating an AI boyfriend (don't ask me how that works). And that's to say nothing of everyone who uses it to write their mundane emails and spreadsheets.

It only seems to be people heavily involved in tech as part of their day job who have any serious concerns about it.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#86

Post by cucumber3732842 »

pj_mukh wrote: post #17
afavour wrote: post #3

It’s a one year moratorium. I don’t see a problem with this. A lot of voters are concerned about the impacts data centers will have, those concerns are not entirely unwarranted. We don’t actually have to be moving at breakneck speeds, the AI companies just want you to think we do. A pause to investigate seems warranted.

Blocking is easy, UN-blocking is hard (see: zoning and housing). There are no objective concerns to be met, and there will never be. I would bet a lot of money the moratorium is indefinitely extended every year. Always thought letting populism define a "slow-down" was silly, its a moratorium and a permanent veto everyone is looking for. It's fine, the data centers will be built elsewhere in more politically impoveris…

Exactly.

Wall Street is gonna finance these projects and make their cut wherever the projects ultimately are. NY state is simply ensuring that no concrete batch plant in Oneonta accidentally gets rich along the way too,

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#87

Post by measurablefunc »

orangedog wrote: post #46
piltdownman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Governance of that oh-so-dependable Texan power grid are going to engage in some macabre arithmetic this Winter...

That happened in 2021 and we haven't had similar issues since. I haven't experienced a power grid failure since then.

According to Google, Texas currently has about 87GW of peak capacity & a data center production pipeline that will require 75-100GW. So the state will have to basically double its peak capacity to supply power to all those new data centers.

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#89

Post by [deleted] »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #86
pj_mukh wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blocking is easy, UN-blocking is hard (see: zoning and housing). There are no objective concerns to be met, and there will never be. I would bet a lot of money the moratorium is indefinitely extended every year. Always thought letting populism define a "slow-down" was silly, its a moratorium and a permanent veto everyone is looking for. It's fine, the data centers will be built elsewhere in more politically impoveris…

Exactly. Wall Street is gonna finance these projects and make their cut wherever the projects ultimately are. NY state is simply ensuring that no concrete batch plant in Oneonta accidentally gets rich along the way too,

[deleted]

Re: New York becomes the first state to impose a data center moratorium

#90

Post by martythemaniak »

zdragnar wrote: post #48
martythemaniak wrote: post #23

Here's a view that I've not seen AI/DC proponents engage in (for example, Carmack's recent pro DC post) AI is an exciting and promising new tech, much like the web/internet in 90s and smartphones in late 2000s. Back in those times, the tech industry was far, far smaller, tiny in the 90s and maybe like 1/20th of the current size in the late 2000s. Tech companies were not a big part of people's every day lives, so thes…

> web/internet in 90s and smartphones in late 2000s. Back in those times, the tech industry was far, far smaller > huge parts of people's lives are mediated by one of a half dozen companies The latter point is doing a lot of heavy lifting because the first point is whitewashing history. Back in the 90's, you had exactly one cable TV provider, one phone provider, maybe one or two cell phone providers if you could affo…

Well, the 90s were a time of liberalization/deregulation so definitely a moving target, but the monopolies/layer of mediation were held back by variety cultural, regulatory and legislative checks. Glass-Steagall was repealed in '99, fairness doctorine was repealed in '87, but the mindset and expectations remained in place, the idea of Citizens United would have been considered absurd, agencies had stronger regulations, etc etc. Today you have a handful of people who control these companies (non voting shares) paying money directly to the president in return for preferential access. Laws and the public interest are not a part of any consideration.

Here's a practical example: your gmail account today is probably more important to you than your phone number was in the 90s and you can run afoul of some random ML subsystem and lose access. There is no recourse or accountability. Randomly loosing your phone number and not having recourse was not a thing back then.

But yes, I was on the internet in the 90s, the little playground we fled to has grown into a terrible panopticon run by unaccountable people for their own personal interest. NIMBY DC opposition is a terrible proxy to tackle this, but it may be the only tool available.

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