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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#91

Post by roundabout-host »

sschueller wrote: post #9

Two platforms that are not owned by companies in the EU. Effectively handing the keys to your state ID to private foreign enterprise. What will you do when Apple/Google or the US Government effective immediately delete/block your app? The impact initially may be small but after a few years if widely used, you can break a country.

This is a problem, but not the only one. The biggest one is that the phones in question are locked and deny user freedom. I would not be content with an European "alternative", but which is as locked as iOS.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#92

Post by anal_reactor »

jck86 wrote: post #66
gobip wrote: post #13

Don't fall for the trap. The question isn't how we should technically force age verification on anybody. The question is why they're pushing it onto everyone. I did not consent to this, neither did you.

But it is needed to protect the children. The politicians say so, so it has to be true. Being against this is very dangerous to our children and democracy. There is no alternative. Seriously, there is something tremendously wrong with governance when politicians keep changing the whole world around us, without us having any say in it at all. The threat this measure poses to the internet and society is significant, ye…

> Seriously, there is something tremendously wrong with governance when politicians keep changing the whole world around us, without us having any say in it at all.

That's where you're wrong. Most people actually do agree with age verification. Just because a decision is stupid it doesn't mean it's undemocratic. Trump was elected democratically, twice. Brexit passed through a referendum.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#93

Post by roundabout-host »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #67
sebtron wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be a phone? Some people still use tablets, laptops and, believe it or not, desktop PCs.

Tablets would be compatible, and there's absolutely no indication that there won't be a separate system for computers. It's actually disingenuous to think there won't be. This is a repository for a mobile app only.

The spec mandates mobile versions to exist, and not PC ones. While a PC version can be provided, no government will do that, because they will do the bare minimum.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#94

Post by roundabout-host »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #5

I agree with the sentiment but is there even any phone that doesn't run Android (or derivatives) or iOS and that can install modern "apps"?

Android derivatives are not considered enough, because they will not be Google-attested, so the app will refuse them.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#95

Post by choo-t »

pibaker wrote: post #87
choo-t wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RpgMaker is really approachable for a 13yo. There also Luanti, the new name of MineTest, which is closer to the Roblox experience (in the sense that there already a playable game there, and creating new stuff is closing to modding than to game making).

The Roblox experience also includes a huge existing player base who may come and play your game without having to install anything new on their machines. I'd say this social factor actually matters a lot for Roblox where many if not most games are multiplayer. The only thing close is minecraft, which from what I heard already has similar restrictions on in game chat, plus other shady maneuvers from Microsoft.

Of course Roblox have more player, but does your child really need millions of players?

It's the same network effect with other megacorp, we could argue the same about X/Instagram/Mastodon, the question could be changed to: Do you want your children to be groomed to use closed source ecosystem from shady companies or do you prefer they gain experience in using relatively open ecosystem ?

Luanti let you make multiplayer games/mods too. For Minecraft there way to play outside of Microsoft sanctioned versions and servers.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#96

Post by ozlikethewizard »

This is even more than just android, I'm sure there are plenty of us using AOSP forks that do not have google services installed. I think the EU will overturn this with enough noise though. Hopefully the UK doesn't do the same, I've avoided having to root my phone so far and would like to keep it that way if possible.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#97

Post by soco »

snottynose wrote: post #50
tikkabhuna wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would an age verification app need to know your ethnicity/religion? Governments likely already know your name, age, place of birth, so having an app with a standard API for verifying users isn't giving the government additional data.

It is one extra attack vector. There is a data leak reported every week, and it is now apparent we cannot trust any organization to handle any datum securely, at all. It has gotten to the point where I now consider every piece of information compromised and sold on the dark web as soon as I am forced to transfer it to a third party. Because those are the odds.

It's also replacing all the personal information stores from thousand applications and websites you have previously registered, or would have to. So arguably it's thousand attack vectors less.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#98

Post by jstummbillig »

choo-t wrote: post #95
pibaker wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Roblox experience also includes a huge existing player base who may come and play your game without having to install anything new on their machines. I'd say this social factor actually matters a lot for Roblox where many if not most games are multiplayer. The only thing close is minecraft, which from what I heard already has similar restrictions on in game chat, plus other shady maneuvers from Microsoft.

Of course Roblox have more player, but does your child really need millions of players? It's the same network effect with other megacorp, we could argue the same about X/Instagram/Mastodon, the question could be changed to: Do you want your children to be groomed to use closed source ecosystem from shady companies or do you prefer they gain experience in using relatively open ecosystem ? Luanti let you make multiplay…

> Of course Roblox have more player, but does your child really need millions of players?

Nobody uses platforms because they are are looking to exercise billions of options. The point is easy commonality. You sit next to a kid, and, what do you know, they are into Roblox too. Cool. Wanna play?

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#99

Post by zeta0134 »

joe_mamba wrote: post #64
em500 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government issued versus corporate issued age verification is a false dichotomy. There are other options, such as refusing games that require them. (Yes, we do have a teen, and yes we did exactly that with Roblox.)

>There are other options, such as refusing games that require them. How about the option of the state not being so tyrannical in meddling about what people anonymously do online in their free time?

This is generally my opinion, and goodness it's swung around quite a bit. This entire debate feels like it should be solved by adequate parental controls.

To the extent that it matters, I think the missing link here is "primary education should support a parent's intent to limit unrestricted internet access for their children." That is, during school activities where internet use is unavoidable, require supervision. (Maybe a lab monitor that can roam the room and see screens?) And for homework, don't assume the kid has internet access, because that is the parent's choice, and they may well not. On the flip side, if the parent trusts their kid with that access, or intends for them to learn through real world experience, let them. That should not be the state's decision.

The problem of course is that this idea in my head is a pipe dream. Schools seem to be well onboard with digital coursework, presumably for efficiency reasons? Unclear. I'm not sure what a more practical middle ground actually looks like.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#100

Post by omnimus »

blop wrote: post #25

This is the elephant in the room regarding the big "digital sovereignty" talks in the EU. For the moment in the EU institutions the focus is mostly at the post-acceptance stage that everything must eventually migrate off US clouds. There is still some denial and hope that things will go back to "before" because it's going to be extremely costly to migrate, but at least high level EU civil servants start to see the st…

This is not entirely true. I don't have much details but I know people who started to work on two separate free software projects aiming to make supported mobile OS. These projects couldn't get funding before but they do now. Afaik it's still a battle with AI companies lobbying that soverign AI is much more important than mobile OS but there is some growing interest. Imho i don't even think some linux based alternative to Android would be that hard to pull off but it's the hw companies that will be skeptical to build hw for such OS. I would have to be some govs puahing it as secure gov devices first.
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