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Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

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Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#151

Post by fluoridation »

aspenmayer wrote: post #150
fluoridation wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the bulk of the Russian forces are still armed forces personnel. Second, even if most of the Russian forces consisted of mercenaries, their pay and their tactical objectives would come from the Russian government, which also directs the strategic objectives. A cyberpunk corporate war is fought entirely between corporations, for corporate reasons. What even is this argument? Why are you people wasting my and yo…

Considering how the former leader of Wagner countermanded orders from above and was recalled, as well as Wagner’s usage of press-ganged convicts straight out of gulags, the unit was fairly irregular compared to the Russian military proper. Wagner’s other activities such as natural resource diversion from their legitimate owner/lessor seems to firmly put the organization proper in cyberpunk territory. Cyberpunk as a c…

>Wagner’s other activities such as natural resource diversion from their legitimate owner/lessor seems to firmly put the organization proper in cyberpunk territory.

What I said was that the Ukrainian war is not a corporate war. The composition or actions of the Wagner group are completely irrelevant. WG could be composed of anarchist hacker cyborgs who participate in armed conflicts to fund their struggle against what they perceive as a corporatocracy, and the Ukranian war would still not be a corporate war.

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#152

Post by aspenmayer »

fluoridation wrote: post #151
aspenmayer wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering how the former leader of Wagner countermanded orders from above and was recalled, as well as Wagner’s usage of press-ganged convicts straight out of gulags, the unit was fairly irregular compared to the Russian military proper. Wagner’s other activities such as natural resource diversion from their legitimate owner/lessor seems to firmly put the organization proper in cyberpunk territory. Cyberpunk as a c…

>Wagner’s other activities such as natural resource diversion from their legitimate owner/lessor seems to firmly put the organization proper in cyberpunk territory. What I said was that the Ukrainian war is not a corporate war. The composition or actions of the Wagner group are completely irrelevant. WG could be composed of anarchist hacker cyborgs who participate in armed conflicts to fund their struggle against wha…

The points system whereby Ukrainian soldiers’ units earn credits for confirmed kills (with a bonus for live capture) of Russian and other nations’ hostile forces, which can be redeemed for drones and other materiel from plethora of international and domestic startups competing with established arms megacorps, as opposed to top-down procurement diktats reads to me as cyberpunk. The growing usage of (semi)autonomous ground drones on both sides also seems fairly cyberpunk in a Terminator sense. The participation of forces from other rogue states like North Korea in exchange for food and arms is cyberpunk.

Reasonable people can disagree, as I alluded to above, but I wouldn’t say that disagreement on the points or in itself is pointless or wrong, which seems to be where we differ. Whether something is cyberpunk is in the eye of the beholder, a subjective experience in the reader of art and of literature and of history. I don’t see how you can say what something seems like to others, as that is to second guess their own experience of reality (or as mediated by fiction, in the the case of artistic works).

To me, the cyberpunk ethos can be summarized as high tech, low life. Utilizing literal convicts as frontline soldiers by Wagner in Ukraine seems to fit that description to a tee.

In light of the above combined with the routine usage of AI on all sides, the conflict in Ukraine as a whole seems to be a literal expression of “sustainable war” as depicted in Ghost in the Shell: SAC_2045, which is widely regarded as a cyberpunk work.

https://breezewiki.com/Ghostintheshell/wiki/Sustainable_War

> In effect, the G4 nations went to war with each other in a "sustainable" manner managed by AIs: fighting deliberately avoided damaging major cities and essential infrastructure, mercenaries, and autonomous war machines were heavily used, and the goal of most battles was to destroy enemy structures, vehicles, and equipment while taking reasonable measures to capture rather than fatally harm human combatants when possible. In other words, the conflict would be sustainable as almost all losses could, in theory, be perpetually replaced by the military-industrial complex.

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#153

Post by fluoridation »

aspenmayer wrote: post #152
fluoridation wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wagner’s other activities such as natural resource diversion from their legitimate owner/lessor seems to firmly put the organization proper in cyberpunk territory. What I said was that the Ukrainian war is not a corporate war. The composition or actions of the Wagner group are completely irrelevant. WG could be composed of anarchist hacker cyborgs who participate in armed conflicts to fund their struggle against wha…

The points system whereby Ukrainian soldiers’ units earn credits for confirmed kills (with a bonus for live capture) of Russian and other nations’ hostile forces, which can be redeemed for drones and other materiel from plethora of international and domestic startups competing with established arms megacorps, as opposed to top-down procurement diktats reads to me as cyberpunk. The growing usage of (semi)autonomous gr…

>What I said was that the Ukrainian war is not a corporate war.

I won't let you move the goalposts.

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#154

Post by aspenmayer »

fluoridation wrote: post #153
aspenmayer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The points system whereby Ukrainian soldiers’ units earn credits for confirmed kills (with a bonus for live capture) of Russian and other nations’ hostile forces, which can be redeemed for drones and other materiel from plethora of international and domestic startups competing with established arms megacorps, as opposed to top-down procurement diktats reads to me as cyberpunk. The growing usage of (semi)autonomous gr…

>What I said was that the Ukrainian war is not a corporate war. I won't let you move the goalposts.

It’s more corporate than any past war, and for the reasons stated, it is hard to imagine how it could be more corporate if the belligerents tried. The direct involvement of startups in weapons dev combined with the points system creating a market for material driven by individuals and small groups rather than a traditional procurement process is hyper capitalist. The absence of direct conflict between corporations à la Shadowrun doesn’t meaningfully change the calculus for my determination that the Ukraine was is a corporate war.

Regarding your edit:

> I won't let you move the goalposts.

I don’t know what this statement is referring to, but I haven’t changed any of my positions regarding what I perceive as cyberpunk or whether or not I view the Ukraine war as corporate (and cyberpunk).

Perhaps you view the discussion as one where points are scored, but I don’t. I view the discussion as a collaborative enterprise where we both express ourselves and develop our own ideas in the context of a wider discussion.

If there’s something specific I said you would like me to address, please let me know, as I don’t know what you mean.

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#155

Post by fluoridation »

aspenmayer wrote: post #154
fluoridation wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What I said was that the Ukrainian war is not a corporate war. I won't let you move the goalposts.

It’s more corporate than any past war, and for the reasons stated, it is hard to imagine how it could be more corporate if the belligerents tried. The direct involvement of startups in weapons dev combined with the points system creating a market for material driven by individuals and small groups rather than a traditional procurement process is hyper capitalist. The absence of direct conflict between corporations à…

Okay, fine. Then you're using the term in a different sense than I did. What's your point with this line of argumentation? Are you disagreeing with my definition of "corporate war", or are you disagreeing with the Ukrainian war not being a corporate one by my definition?

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#156

Post by aspenmayer »

fluoridation wrote: post #155
aspenmayer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more corporate than any past war, and for the reasons stated, it is hard to imagine how it could be more corporate if the belligerents tried. The direct involvement of startups in weapons dev combined with the points system creating a market for material driven by individuals and small groups rather than a traditional procurement process is hyper capitalist. The absence of direct conflict between corporations à…

Okay, fine. Then you're using the term in a different sense than I did. What's your point with this line of argumentation? Are you disagreeing with my definition of "corporate war", or are you disagreeing with the Ukrainian war not being a corporate one by my definition?

> What's your point with this line of argumentation? Are you disagreeing with my definition of "corporate war", or are you disagreeing that the Ukrainian war is not a corporate one by my definition?

It’s a discussion board. I’m discussing the topic and trying to get to know what you think and believe, and thanks to your prompting, I got to know what I think and believe a little better myself. I don’t have any desire to disagree with you, as I don’t think that either one of us are making statements that have an objective quality to them, as the context is too subjective and subject to interpretation.

I don’t know enough about your definition of “corporate war” in the context of this thread, since you said we’re using different definitions, so maybe you could share a little bit about what that term means to you? What would it take to make the Ukrainian war a corporate war, to you? What are qualities of corporate war, and how would you or I know it when we see it? Can you think of some examples that meet your definition of corporate war, either in fiction or in real life?

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#157

Post by staticman2 »

the_af wrote: post #91
staticman2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's always been a very horny creator and the original Ghost In the Shell movie (in fairness not directed by him) has the female main character need to get nude to use her stealth ability while the men can leave their clothes on. Whatever narrative you've invented of Shirow changing over time is a stretch.

If you've seen the original movie, other than nudity there is very little horny in it. No sex, no banter about sex, no erotica. The female body, even if well endowed, is depicted clinically and emotionless. There are no lecherous characters, nobody chasing girls, etc. No romance even, though the relationship between Motoko and Batou is somewhat ambiguous. Shirow's manga is horny though, partly why I dislike it.

The movie starts with a bunch of female nudity during the credit sequence.

It's arty but there's no doubt it's done that way in part due to horniness.

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#158

Post by ChoGGi »

whilenot-dev wrote: post #58
tangenter wrote: post #37

So much of this space has been collapsed into homogenized entertainment. Nowadays, by the time a child is ten years old they have seen every form of the hero’s journey in the cartoons they watch, to the degree where there are tropes and nods to source material or even sometimes derivatives of source. Sci fi, fantasy and other genres are blended in as hooks because cartoons have to keep viewership and eye balls, so th…

I meant to write quite a long response to your comment, but let me just bring it down to a single question: How is your feeling different from melancholia? There is and always will be mainstream, niche, the unknown and everything in between. There was always very little new material and a lot of works just gained recognition when their zeitgeist was long overdue, too. I think experimentation is hard, and it's even ha…

Thanks for that recommendation. That looks just up my alley.

You may wish to give On the Silver Globe a watch.

Re: Cyberpunk Comics, Manga and Graphic Novels

#159

Post by aspenmayer »

staticman2 wrote: post #157
the_af wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've seen the original movie, other than nudity there is very little horny in it. No sex, no banter about sex, no erotica. The female body, even if well endowed, is depicted clinically and emotionless. There are no lecherous characters, nobody chasing girls, etc. No romance even, though the relationship between Motoko and Batou is somewhat ambiguous. Shirow's manga is horny though, partly why I dislike it.

The movie starts with a bunch of female nudity during the credit sequence. It's arty but there's no doubt it's done that way in part due to horniness.

I think the sexuality of Kusanagi works on multiple levels. She is a full cyborg, and she could present however she wishes. She explicitly uses her appearance toward social engineering ends in the Stand Alone Complex series. I’m not very familiar with the manga, from what I do remember, Kusanagi is bisexual and is likely “fully functional” sexually, but her body as depicted isn’t really her own, as she relies upon regular maintenance provided Section 9.

I view the portrayal of Kusanagi as being steeped in aspects of the male gaze in a metatextual way. Japanese society has a high emphasis on traditional beauty standards, and the artists depicting her as a character use her beauty as a foil against the audience, by contrasting her beauty with her strength, and by subverting the desires of the audience by drawing our attention to her humanity by alienation through destroying her body at multiple points in the series. Her desire to protect her comrades at the cost of her body shows us how she is willing to sacrifice her femininity, being forced to regress to a childlike body.

The series have a lot of fan service, but I believe that it’s intentional so that the audience is forced to confront their own biases and stereotypes about women and about cyborgs/robots. The cyborg nature of her body as it is destroyed reads to me as a visual metaphor for the Madonna/whore double standard women are subject to society.

I guess I don’t disagree with your view, so much as I think that how she is depicted works on multiple levels in-universe and with respect to the viewer, and said depictions serve multiple functions in the text.

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