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Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

cakehonolulu.github.io

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Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#11

Post by to11mtm »

cakehonolulu wrote: post #10
to11mtm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a semi silly (But also possibly pragmatic, if we want to do this for more than simple 'fun') question... I wonder what it would take for projects like this, to take the video output and turn it into a (possibly not-visually-usable) jankhacked data output stream that could then be decoded? I mean, there's a lot of hand-waving there (i.e. it would only be output which could complicate ease of using it practically) O…

Not a silly question actually. There's really clever ways you can get down to scratch that space-saving itch; I'm not knowledgeable about it either (I'm just really bad when it comes to analog signals) but if you really, really needed to shave off even more stuff; I reckon that the video console driver could possibly be reduced to something far more esoteric (That'd need signal processing to get tangible output of).…

Well, when I say resources in this case, I mean UART bandwidth and the overhead of synchronizing that for output.... not so much memory itself (well, unless the overhead of the hackery for whatever 32x does as far as VRAM is worse, not sure if it's another tile engine or one just bangs bits...)

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#12

Post by msk-lywenn »

cakehonolulu wrote: post #2

After testing the waters with a Linux for Jaguar port; I basically set myself to get similar results on the 32X add-on for the Sega Genesis. Turns out that, even without hardware synchronization primitives, you can get smp-ready Linux: https://github.com/cakehonolulu/linux_ports

Congrats. Any idea why one cpu reports 10 bogomips and the other 20?

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#13

Post by mikepavone »

Neat to see this on HN after discussing this a bit with you on the Emudev discord (I'm Mask of Destiny there). I'm curious if you tested this on hardware. I think I mentioned this previously, but my understanding is that the SH-2s are incapable of writing to the cartridge area [0]. This would seem to preclude using the cart as RAM even with the extended "SSF2" mapper. Did you find that to be not the case or was this only tested in an emulator?

[0] - See this Spritesmind forum thread https://web.archive.org/web/20190209161834/http://gendev.spr... (Internet Archive link because the live site is mostly unusable due to the scraper deluge)

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#14

Post by cakehonolulu »

msk-lywenn wrote: post #12
cakehonolulu wrote: post #2

After testing the waters with a Linux for Jaguar port; I basically set myself to get similar results on the 32X add-on for the Sega Genesis. Turns out that, even without hardware synchronization primitives, you can get smp-ready Linux: https://github.com/cakehonolulu/linux_ports

Congrats. Any idea why one cpu reports 10 bogomips and the other 20?

That was something I also noticed; I can't say for sure (Since I haven't yet checked) but I feel like I may have done something incorrect when wiring the FRT (The timer) to the secondary, smp-enabled SH2.

The BogoMIPS value is derived from a calibration that Linux does against the timer of choice so it could very well be a reason why.

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#15

Post by mikepavone »

cakehonolulu wrote: post #4
jonhohle wrote: post #3

This is exciting! I didn’t see anything about I/O, but could the serial port be used for terminal access (or to drive keyboard input for the console). Lots of untapped potential. With the Sega CD you’d get more RAM and a second, faster 68k

Hi! I'm basically forwarding UART data from the SH2s over to the M68K using a simple communication channel. Since the SH2s don't really have "direct" access to the Genesis's I/O port (They have TTL UART which caps at 4800 bps) I need this precise schema to have output. Technically speaking it should be simple enough to wire RXD too so you can interact with it. I saw some keyboard prototypes for the Genesis online (Wh…

For what it's worth, the Sub 68K (mostly*) does not share memory with the main 68K. This makes SMP impossible, but on the bright side there's no contention. Sadly, there's also no way for the faster Sub 68K to directly access the cartridge so I think it would be difficult to run Linux on that CPU at all unless you can cram everything into 768KB (program RAM + word RAM)

* Word RAM can be swapped between the 68Ks, or can be operated in a split mode where each 68K gets half. There's no mechanism to allow both 68K's to access the same bank simultaneously though.

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#16

Post by Dwedit »

For those unfamiliar with the Hitachi SuperH architecture, imagine THUMB. ARM even had to license some of the patents from Hitchai when they developed THUMB. SuperH architecture is not the same thing as THUMB, but it has a lot in common, mainly use of 16-bit instructions, and instructions that only specify two registers rather than three.

But it also has some RISC jank of the era, such as branch delay slots.

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#17

Post by cakehonolulu »

mikepavone wrote: post #13

Neat to see this on HN after discussing this a bit with you on the Emudev discord (I'm Mask of Destiny there). I'm curious if you tested this on hardware. I think I mentioned this previously, but my understanding is that the SH-2s are incapable of writing to the cartridge area [0]. This would seem to preclude using the cart as RAM even with the extended "SSF2" mapper. Did you find that to be not the case or was this…

Hi! Nice to see you here.

Yes so, this was tested within a software context; the ASIC that does the bus arbitration on the side of the 32X has some of the required pins as N/C. They do a much more interesting deep-dive on the link you added.

I initially thought the 68000 side /UWR & /LWR pins were wired to the complimentary 315-5818 ones (Since there wasn't any apparent difference between the pinouts of both).

This makes the setup a bit different since you'd not be addressing the cart's PSRAM, but instead, the 32X's SDRAM. With XIP (Like on the Jaguar port) you could probably pull it off (Not sure if you'd be able to cram the entire Busybox environment but maybe a small program could do it).

Good thing is, this is actual Linux (And not uCLinux) so there's still stuff that can be disabled further if for some reason it can't fit still on the available memory.

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#18

Post by cakehonolulu »

Dwedit wrote: post #16

For those unfamiliar with the Hitachi SuperH architecture, imagine THUMB. ARM even had to license some of the patents from Hitchai when they developed THUMB. SuperH architecture is not the same thing as THUMB, but it has a lot in common, mainly use of 16-bit instructions, and instructions that only specify two registers rather than three. But it also has some RISC jank of the era, such as branch delay slots.

I actually didn't know the THUMB thing; pretty interesting stuff...

The branch delay slots/load delay slots thing was also something that plagued some MIPS processors back then too; 5th generation of consoles (At least, from Sony, Nintendo and Sega) had either all or a subset of those quirks on their flagship machines.

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#19

Post by cakehonolulu »

mikepavone wrote: post #15
cakehonolulu wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! I'm basically forwarding UART data from the SH2s over to the M68K using a simple communication channel. Since the SH2s don't really have "direct" access to the Genesis's I/O port (They have TTL UART which caps at 4800 bps) I need this precise schema to have output. Technically speaking it should be simple enough to wire RXD too so you can interact with it. I saw some keyboard prototypes for the Genesis online (Wh…

For what it's worth, the Sub 68K (mostly*) does not share memory with the main 68K. This makes SMP impossible, but on the bright side there's no contention. Sadly, there's also no way for the faster Sub 68K to directly access the cartridge so I think it would be difficult to run Linux on that CPU at all unless you can cram everything into 768KB (program RAM + word RAM) * Word RAM can be swapped between the 68Ks, or c…

Ah, that'd be it then; it would've been such a cool experiment.

Regardless, I don't really know if there's the notion of an SMP-enabled m68k board based on Linux so I would not really know where to start.

For SuperH, I've gotten very lucky because there's a single CPU subtype (J2, https://j-core.org/) which has SMP tidbits that helped me understand what to look for and where in terms of wiring the 32X's CPU subtype.

Re: Linux on the Sega 32X. Who needs hardware synchronization primitives anyway?

#20

Post by cakehonolulu »

cakehonolulu wrote: post #17
mikepavone wrote: post #13

Neat to see this on HN after discussing this a bit with you on the Emudev discord (I'm Mask of Destiny there). I'm curious if you tested this on hardware. I think I mentioned this previously, but my understanding is that the SH-2s are incapable of writing to the cartridge area [0]. This would seem to preclude using the cart as RAM even with the extended "SSF2" mapper. Did you find that to be not the case or was this…

Hi! Nice to see you here. Yes so, this was tested within a software context; the ASIC that does the bus arbitration on the side of the 32X has some of the required pins as N/C. They do a much more interesting deep-dive on the link you added. I initially thought the 68000 side /UWR & /LWR pins were wired to the complimentary 315-5818 ones (Since there wasn't any apparent difference between the pinouts of both). This m…

I was actually thinking, if memory is the bottleneck; I could always go with the Saturn instead (Or find a way to have the 32X catridge writes go through…; but I’m no EE unfortunately).

I do recall having a RAM expansion cartridge in mine that could possibly be used to fit more stuff if the main 2MBs it had were too little to hold Linux.

You got me thinking…

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