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A graph that should be front-page news

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Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#321

Post by smcg »

tancop wrote: post #245

the problem with this kind of article is half of them push a doom angle and the other half talk about carbon footprint. both of them have the same effect making people give up or do useless lifestyle changes that do nothing for the environment. we should be pushing for backend changes that are invisible but actually make things better. that means massive subsidies to build out clean power and electrify everything. po…

Remember when the Obama and Biden admins started a bunch of solar incentives and Trump rolled them back?

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#323

Post by hnfong »

kypro wrote: post #298
tancop wrote: post #245

the problem with this kind of article is half of them push a doom angle and the other half talk about carbon footprint. both of them have the same effect making people give up or do useless lifestyle changes that do nothing for the environment. we should be pushing for backend changes that are invisible but actually make things better. that means massive subsidies to build out clean power and electrify everything. po…

Unpopular opinion, but we need to start using hard and soft power if we want to fix this problem. Europe cannot fix climate change on its own, and we already represent an increasingly small share of total emissions. The question now is how we get other countries onboard fast, and if they continue to build out cheap coal-fired power stations what are we going to do about it? Something or nothing? Unless we can get eve…

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Europe dismantled their own nuclear plants and are actively trying to ban electric vehicles from China.

Getting the rest of the world on board would be much easier when you (presumably are in Europe) are getting your domestic policies right.

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#324

Post by Ntrails »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #282
tancop wrote: post #245

the problem with this kind of article is half of them push a doom angle and the other half talk about carbon footprint. both of them have the same effect making people give up or do useless lifestyle changes that do nothing for the environment. we should be pushing for backend changes that are invisible but actually make things better. that means massive subsidies to build out clean power and electrify everything. po…

> to scrap unpopular things like ulez How is ulez unpopular? Its geographical, age or class axis. In some places: like the cities, its extremely popular and extremely unpopular in other places: just outside the cities, especially for people who can't afford electric vehicles. Just cos some people vandalise the cameras, don't make it inherently popular or not. Its just that a very few _really_ don't like it, to the ex…

> How is ulez unpopular?

As a rule most people with a ~10 year old car which runs fine at low cost are going to be frustrated at an extra tax on their vehicle. (It is not like the manufacture of a new electric car is green.)

Ordinary People always were going to have to suffer to migrate off fossil fuels. Expecting them to like it is somewhat hopeful!

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#325

Post by throwaway2037 »

ecshafer wrote: post #304
kypro wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpopular opinion, but we need to start using hard and soft power if we want to fix this problem. Europe cannot fix climate change on its own, and we already represent an increasingly small share of total emissions. The question now is how we get other countries onboard fast, and if they continue to build out cheap coal-fired power stations what are we going to do about it? Something or nothing? Unless we can get eve…

I've pitched this idea before. But instead of something like the Paris Climate Accords which were an agreement for people to self-regulate and reduce emissions. What is needed is an agreement that is a sort of cartel. Nations a,b,c agree on these policies (carbon per person, environmental regulations, etc), and any nation that wants to export services/goods to a,b,c they must enter the agreement or be subject to tari…

I would say that the EU is edging towards this idea. I don't say that to be negative. I support it. One idea: Create per-product, per-country tarrifs based upon their average carbon footprint. If foreign manufs reduce their carbon footprint for the product, then the tarrif is reduced. This creates a good incentive to progressively reduce carbon footprint.

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#326

Post by _alternator_ »

With a headline like that the graph should be at the beginning. Usually you'd put it up front and then talk about the graph, not put it at the bottom and talk about how people aren't talking about it.

Anyway, I scrolled down to the graph and skipped the text. We are currently 4 std deviations above the mean with respect to El Niño temperature.

But there's also a historical line -4 std deviations from the mean. Was that an eventful year too? I can't tell and the graph is at such low resolution that the source URL isn't visible. If the graph and data is so important, shouldn't we care more about presentation? This is either super sloppy or deliberate obfuscation.

Look, I'm all for good reporting on climate. This just doesn't feel like it.

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#327

Post by deepvibrations »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #282
tancop wrote: post #245

the problem with this kind of article is half of them push a doom angle and the other half talk about carbon footprint. both of them have the same effect making people give up or do useless lifestyle changes that do nothing for the environment. we should be pushing for backend changes that are invisible but actually make things better. that means massive subsidies to build out clean power and electrify everything. po…

> to scrap unpopular things like ulez How is ulez unpopular? Its geographical, age or class axis. In some places: like the cities, its extremely popular and extremely unpopular in other places: just outside the cities, especially for people who can't afford electric vehicles. Just cos some people vandalise the cameras, don't make it inherently popular or not. Its just that a very few _really_ don't like it, to the ex…

I agree - I think we really need to encourage reduction in the obvious negative habits and encourage people to take up more positive habits. eg.

- Use car less; walk, cycle, or use public transport more - Eat meat & air-freighted food less; eat local/seasonal produce more - Treat household items as disposable less; repair what breaks and buy for longevity more

I am sure there are plenty more, but how to incentivise these things is a hard problem. One exception being food, where you could easily shift agricultural subsidies away from intensive factory farming and towards local/seasonal food (details may be more complex, but it's do-able!)

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#328

Post by otherme123 »

alwa wrote: post #293
childintime wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word is solar. Instant reduction in CO2 emissions, won't be a decade late, and won't be obsolete by the time it's finally ready. Nuclear is a politician's vanity project. And politicians do have a knack for choosing the wrong thing at the wrong time, by ignoring the market. Just let the engineers make the call.

I think the engineers tend to say nuclear makes much more sense than solar for baseload right? That, and “most of the cost and delay is in these obscenely overcautious regulations?”

As of today, batteries are on par with nuclear cost. And falling.

As for the "obscenely regulations", I had read this before, but nobody can tell me what are they referring to. Because not to long ago France had a massive problem of corrosion in half their nuclear plants, and currently is having a second one (https://balkangreenenergynews.com/french-power-prices-jump-a...). It seems that "obscenely overcautious regulations" still not enough to catch leaks on time, defects that now threat with a energy crisis in France (and secondarily in Europe).

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#329

Post by hnfong »

the_real_cher wrote: post #101
pyaamb wrote: post #74

the ignorance is a consequence of our societies system of incentives. everything keeps pointing back towards that each time theres an event like this. But if we aren't going to attach an economic price for emissions then it remains an externality and not a recognized reality to the economy. The current US administration is playing a leading role in keeping it that way. And voters keep voting for it. Incentives.

Does any country care? Isnt China far worse thsn the US?

I always feel obliged to link to this when contextually appropriate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re: A graph that should be front-page news

#330

Post by uv-depression »

azan_ wrote: post #314
uv-depression wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right; sunlight will eventually run out. (Well, long before that the expanding Sun will boil the oceans). No, you couldn't have an economy in a closed system, but the Earth isn't a closed system (due to the aforementioned sunlight). That's an absurd argument, though. The problem we have right here, right now, is capitalism destroying the habitability of our planet because its hunger for resources must always g…

> That's an absurd argument, though. Yes, exactly! Talking about infinite growth or infinite existence is really stupid and that’s my point!

You're arguing against "degrowthers", favouring the current growth-based system. What you're arguing for is a system that requires the infinite growth you don't want to think about. So in essence you're saying "looking at the consequences of my beliefs is absurd", which is hardly a compelling argument.
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