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Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

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Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#211

Post by throw0101d »

bigcityslider wrote: post #210
throw0101d wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I have 1.2.3.4 in ipv4 world, I want 1.2.3.4 in ipv6 world instead of a random new address. ::ffff:1.2.3.4 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#IPv4-mapped_IPv6_addresse... By having 1.2.3.4 you also got 2002:1.2.3.4::/48 'for free' (per 6to4). So if you want to send things to 1.2.3.4 / ::ffff:1.2.3.4, you tell your router that it's available via 2002:1.2.3.4::/48. Any idea that you think is clever and to 'just'…

Having 1.2.3.4 in v4 doesn't make ::ffff:1.2.3.4 or 2002:1.2.3.4 route to me in v6. It would route to a relay that translates/resends to v4 1.2.3.4, then it reaches my router over v4. Nobody can use that address over pure v6. There's no one clever trick to make the transition easy, the idea is to preserve the v4 address blocks in v6. That cascades down to a bunch of different decisions, some of which include keeping…

> Having 1.2.3.4 in v4 doesn't make ::ffff:1.2.3.4 or 2002:1.2.3.4 route to me in v6. It would route to a relay that translates/resends to v4 1.2.3.4, then it reaches my router over v4. Nobody can use that address over pure v6.*

Sure they could: if your ISP owns 1.2.0.0/16, it could advertise 2002:1.2::/24 via BGP. So if someone on the other side of the planet wants to send something to 2002:1.2.3.4::/48 they would know where to send it.

And just like how something sent to 1.2.0.0/16 globally is then handled internally via IS-IS/OSPF/etc so your ISP knows how to send something for 1.2.3.4 to your CPE, your ISP would know how to handle 2002:1.2.3.4::/48 to get it to your CPE.

Routers are told to map traffic for (::ffff:)a.b.c.d to 2002:a.b.c.d::/48. If you're sending from w.x.y.z, you can put the source address as from something in 2002:w.x.y.z::/48.

It has nothing to do with "clean slate" or not. There are two immovable facts:

"""

IPv4 implementations, in 1994 and still today, have the 32-bit address format built into their code. Whether you expand the address size to 33, 64 or 128 bits, all IPv4 implementations will discard the packets. So it's a matter of mathematical and physical fact that to expand the address size, you must change the protocol, and that means two things immediately:

1. You have to change the version number.

2. You have to add new code to handle the new version.

""

* https://github.com/becarpenter/book6/blob/main/01.%20Introdu...

And this also includes 'accessory protocols': DNS A records are fixed at 32-bits, so if you want to use hostname with IPng you needed to upgrade the DNS infrastructure, including APIs to say "give me A and Ang", and then you perhaps need fallback mechanisms, in which case you're at:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Eyeballs

Any IPng protocol, including 'just' adding bits, regardless of how you want to hand wave it as being 'just' an extension of IPv4 will be in same situation because you can't fit >32-bits in the 32-bits of the original code. You're rolling out new code in a rolling fashion, just like had to be done with IPv6.

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#212

Post by bigcityslider »

throw0101d wrote: post #211
bigcityslider wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having 1.2.3.4 in v4 doesn't make ::ffff:1.2.3.4 or 2002:1.2.3.4 route to me in v6. It would route to a relay that translates/resends to v4 1.2.3.4, then it reaches my router over v4. Nobody can use that address over pure v6. There's no one clever trick to make the transition easy, the idea is to preserve the v4 address blocks in v6. That cascades down to a bunch of different decisions, some of which include keeping…

> Having 1.2.3.4 in v4 doesn't make ::ffff:1.2.3.4 or 2002:1.2.3.4 route to me in v6. It would route to a relay that translates/resends to v4 1.2.3.4, then it reaches my router over v4. Nobody can use that address over pure v6.* Sure they could: if your ISP owns 1.2.0.0/16, it could advertise 2002:1.2::/24 via BGP. So if someone on the other side of the planet wants to send something to 2002:1.2.3.4::/48 they would k…

Well yeah if you made your router use 2002:1.2.3.4, your ISP advertised 2002:1.2:: on BGP, and the other ISPs agreed your ISP owns that, that would work. They didn't do that, and the spec didn't say to. They did 6to4 instead.

I understand the limitation that you can never put a 128-bit address in a 32-bit field, and one way or another two hosts and everything in between have to understand the new packet format. That didn't force them to make ipv6 its whole separate network from v4 where almost no state is shared with v4. Having separate DHCP6 vs DHCP4 was a choice, likewise with DNS, NAT, and even the routing tables. It makes the difference for service operators who would be fine adopting ipv6 but don't want it to be a big project.

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#213

Post by Vaslo »

tomhow wrote: post #166
Vaslo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I had already looked up the full quote; it’s right there with the full context in the Al Gore and information technology Wikipedia article [1]. In a 1999 interview with Wolf Blitzer, he said “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.” What he meant was that he sponsored the legislation that enabled the Internet to be accessible to the public, and several key Inte…

Created vs. Invented. I don't know, sounds like the same thing to me. If Trump said "I took the initiative to create the COVID vaccine" be honest with yourself - how would you respond?

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#214

Post by tomhow »

Vaslo wrote: post #213
tomhow wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had already looked up the full quote; it’s right there with the full context in the Al Gore and information technology Wikipedia article [1]. In a 1999 interview with Wolf Blitzer, he said “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.” What he meant was that he sponsored the legislation that enabled the Internet to be accessible to the public, and several key Inte…

Created vs. Invented. I don't know, sounds like the same thing to me. If Trump said "I took the initiative to create the COVID vaccine" be honest with yourself - how would you respond?

Hacker News should be a place where we don't settle for the weakest-possible interpretation of things (and the guidelines ask that of us, at least in replies to comments and submissions). Gore didn't say “I invented” or “I created” the Internet. He had been a congressman for 22 years when he did that interview, and had studied at Harvard prior to that. He's clearly not a stupid person and clearly understood the difference between inventing a technology and sponsoring legislation.

It's been a bit of a thing of mine for much of my life to notice likely bullshit in commonly-held beliefs, and to dig a little to understand what really happened or what was really said or meant.

And yes, I have always done this regardless of the political side, including in cases where there was uproar about things Trump supposedly said, including about the pandemic. (For the record, I'm not a U.S. citizen/voter, and I've voted for both sides of politics in the country where I am a citizen/voter, and my bullshit detector has been applied to both/all sides, including whichever one I was voting for.)

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#215

Post by lasereyes136 »

I met Vint twice where I spent about an hour each time talking to him in a group. It was years apart and he spoke about the social changes the Internet was bringing about. Always well spoken and thoughtful. It was impressive and I really appreciated was he had to say.

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#216

Post by protocolture »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #202
protocolture wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I recently read about a city that tried to hide that a third of it's water supply was getting used by a Google datacenter. I don't get why its suddenly fashionable to hate datacenters? Did a lot of people really think that their code was running in an actual cloud?

Well I try to avoid running things on the cloud myself, but bear in mind the example here: Every major datacenter operator has abandoned their carbon neutral pledge since the AI race began, and have claimed disclosure of the public about their water usage is a trade secret to hide the damage from the public. In many cases these datacenters have been built near threatened bodies of water, but they are getting priority…

>but they are getting priority access to freshwater before and above residents

Talk to your politicians about increasing water supply.

>The same often happens with electricity, where a significant demand is placed on local infrastructure and taxpayers bear the cost of needed upgrades to the system.

Talk to your politicians about increasing electricity supply.

> Every transaction we make pays Google in one way or another. Every app we buy pays Google 30%. Every business we patronize is spending like 10% of their operating budget with Google. Our tax dollars are funding their datacenters.

Google is not the only operator of data centers.

>Why is it finally fashionable to hate datacenters? People are finally realizing the costs!

You have suddenly become aware of an industry, have no idea what it does and have been spooked into violent mob behavior.

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#217

Post by bloppe »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #202
protocolture wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I recently read about a city that tried to hide that a third of it's water supply was getting used by a Google datacenter. I don't get why its suddenly fashionable to hate datacenters? Did a lot of people really think that their code was running in an actual cloud?

Well I try to avoid running things on the cloud myself, but bear in mind the example here: Every major datacenter operator has abandoned their carbon neutral pledge since the AI race began, and have claimed disclosure of the public about their water usage is a trade secret to hide the damage from the public. In many cases these datacenters have been built near threatened bodies of water, but they are getting priority…

All the golf courses in the US consume 3 orders of magnitude more water than all the data centers in the US. The fixation on water usage doesn't feel honest.

The concern about energy makes more sense, particularly when DCs burn fossil fuels to achieve their off-grid supply, but they really don't move the needle much in terms of retail electric bills

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#218

Post by ocdtrekkie »

bloppe wrote: post #217
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I try to avoid running things on the cloud myself, but bear in mind the example here: Every major datacenter operator has abandoned their carbon neutral pledge since the AI race began, and have claimed disclosure of the public about their water usage is a trade secret to hide the damage from the public. In many cases these datacenters have been built near threatened bodies of water, but they are getting priority…

All the golf courses in the US consume 3 orders of magnitude more water than all the data centers in the US. The fixation on water usage doesn't feel honest. The concern about energy makes more sense, particularly when DCs burn fossil fuels to achieve their off-grid supply, but they really don't move the needle much in terms of retail electric bills

For what it's worth I'm not fond of golf courses either.

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#219

Post by waste_monk »

jvanderbot wrote: post #66

I met Vint at the Kech Institute for Space Studies. He arrived to help us look at in-space data centers for planetary science throughout the solar system. He was a big proponent of delay-tolerant networking and other useful networking stacks, so he was the "rep" for that layer of problems. Just the nicest guy you could imagine. He took the note-takers job during our breakouts, had beers with us after the session, and…

I had the pleasure of attending a presentation he held a bit over a decade ago (public event hosted by the university, back when I was a student).

I didn't get an opportunity to talk to him personally after the event as there was a large queue of senior academics and other VIPs already waiting, but I did see him taking the time to talk first to some school-aged kids who had attended.

He seems like a really nice, humble guy, and looked genuinely happy to be encouraging the kids' interest in the sciences.

Re: Vint Cerf, “father of the Internet”, is retiring

#220

Post by jibal »

tomhow wrote: post #190
jibal wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fulminate? What a bizarre characterization. > but, honesty! Honestly I expect more maturity and less hostility from mods.

My intention was to be friendly, at least at the end. I characterize it as fulminating due to the use of capitalization (which is specifically against the guidelines), along with an overall belligerent tone. It’s just not a cutthroat enough topic to get too insistent about. We can discuss these things in a conversational style, which is what HN is meant to be for. Edit: I see from looking over your comments in the th…

Is capitalizing TFA, TCP/IP, URL, or ARPANET also against the rules?

Hey just joking ... I had no idea that using capitalization for emphasis is against the guidelines ... I think it's quite a stretch to characterize it as "fulminating" or "bellerigent". In the future I will write known as ... I hope italics are not also against the guidelines. (Is my snark "belligerent"? I think it's just conversational.)

> It’s just not a cutthroat enough topic to get too insistent about. We can discuss these things in a conversational style, which is what HN is meant to be for.

Seriously? For a mod you don't seem very familiar with the place. 99% of posts are "insistent" and the person I responded to (as well as yourself) are quite insistent (and belligent--considerably more so than I, IMO). And someone can be insistent "in a conversational style", whatever the eff that means ... and "cutthroat enough topic" isn't even coherent--a category mistake. I was simply presenting a counterargument to a title change that no longer reflected TFA. Frankly I think this is complete bullpucky ... belligent mod-privileged bullpucky. Again, less hostility and belligerence and more charity, please. Moderation shouldn't include characterizing people as "fulminating" or "overly belligerent", especially on such flimsy grounds -- that's pretty effing belligerent which a rational person might expect to raise defensive emotions in the person it is directed at, and with all the insistence and belligerence all over this site (have you seen all the belligerent insistent claims that people are using AI to write their posts? those accusations are turning this place to crap more than the actual use of AI is but they not only aren't moderated against, they are implicitly encouraged) it comes across as personal, immoderate, and lacking evenhandedness.

I won't respond further on this dead topic.

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