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LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

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Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you trust the city more than Flock. One of the common claimed abuses of Flock data is city cops using it to stalk exes and crushes. The problem with Flock is not who owns the data, it's the potential for abuse.

I wonder why we aren't addressing the real problem which seems to be cops behaving completely unethically. Their job is about enforcing the system that codifies our societies agreed up and codified rules of ethics. They should be obsessed with this the same way people here obsess over system performance, correctness, etc! If we cannot trust them with the very basics of ethical behavior they are absolutely in the wron…

Because finding people that are 100% ethical is extremely difficult. Even if we are wildly optimistic and say 20% of the population is 100% ethical. You aren't likely to weed out unethical people, so you are hiring people, training them, and then firing them 4 out of 5 of them. There are many cases where an experienced but occasionally unethical worker is better than an unexperienced but ethical worker. When faced with this dilemma it is likely that more police debts would simply cheat or cover up police abuses to retain valuable staff or staff at all.

The solution is not making humans more virtuous but reducing the capability and the harm done that unethical humans can do.

> If we cannot trust them with the very basics of ethical behavior they are absolutely in the wrong job and there need to be very clear consequences.

Police should not be trusted because they are police. There should be audits and controls that prevent abuse and unethical behavior. Small unethical behaviors should result in corrective measures but not termination, since when the punishment becomes too great you create incentives for cover ups or scapegoats. A small number of minor punishments, that catch people as soon as they step over the line, functions better as a deterrent than a large scale punishments that are unlikely to be actually enforced. Granted if a police officer does a major crime, they should face serious consequences, but the goal should be to creating a system that makes major crimes by police less likely. If they know they will get caught for minor crimes, they are less likely to commit bigger crimes.

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#72
post #38
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Flock is probably the worst solution besides all the rest. They seem to be the most auditable and accountable. The fact that anyone even knows the service and founder is a testament to accountability.

Knowing about the CEO of a company is the lowest bar for, "testament to accountability" I've ever seen.

You have someone in charge. You know who to question. You can even spam him on social media and a decent chance he'll reply.

Try to get something out of the CEO of Bank of America or some other faceless corporation

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#73
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I'd prefer cops have access to technology that helps them apprehend criminals and enforce the law. Better audits and accountability are the solution, not removing technology.

I do know. I do not want to live in a society that is under 24/7 surveillance. Of course, if the cops can watch everything you do all the time, there will be less crime. But that is not a sacrifice I’m willing to make.

Cool, I choose to live in a highly policed neighborhood with well funded police. Essentially a gated community.

You can enjoy your "freedom", but based on the real estate prices, I think more people have my preference.

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you trust the city more than Flock. One of the common claimed abuses of Flock data is city cops using it to stalk exes and crushes. The problem with Flock is not who owns the data, it's the potential for abuse.

I wonder why we aren't addressing the real problem which seems to be cops behaving completely unethically. Their job is about enforcing the system that codifies our societies agreed up and codified rules of ethics. They should be obsessed with this the same way people here obsess over system performance, correctness, etc! If we cannot trust them with the very basics of ethical behavior they are absolutely in the wron…

Police actually exist to protect capital. At least in the USA.

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do know. I do not want to live in a society that is under 24/7 surveillance. Of course, if the cops can watch everything you do all the time, there will be less crime. But that is not a sacrifice I’m willing to make.

> if the cops can watch everything you do all the time, there will be less crime I disagree there. If cops watch us at all times then more crimes will be prosecuted, think they'll just sit bored with nothing happening? They will find things, real or not. The reality is that crime is way down, we do not need more enforcement. Leave us alone already. https://www.opencrime.us/years

What planet do you live on? Go to a low crime neighborhood. Cops are super friendly and basically spend their day happily helping old ladies cross the street or getting cats down from trees.

If you think cops like cracking heads and dealing with petty crime that they'll just invent otherwise and use to harass people, you're out of your mind. You really need to get out more.

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#76

Are there any privacy-first security camera provider where it's the city that manages data access and uses it purely for local law enforcement purposes?

Why would you trust the city more than Flock. One of the common claimed abuses of Flock data is city cops using it to stalk exes and crushes. The problem with Flock is not who owns the data, it's the potential for abuse.

I'd trust a municipality I have a vote in more than a private company.

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#77
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I'd prefer cops have access to technology that helps them apprehend criminals and enforce the law. Better audits and accountability are the solution, not removing technology.

> I'm cool with zero privacy if it means cops can arrest people more easily since they have perfect judgement "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin

Grant me the liberty to camp out on a public sidewalk and use hard drugs in a children's playground or give me death!

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#78

Are there any privacy-first security camera provider where it's the city that manages data access and uses it purely for local law enforcement purposes?

Can we normalize a healthy 4th amendment posture? It’s wild that the Peter Thiel “don’t tread on me” folks are so cool with a China like police state.

It's because their actual motto is "Don't tread on me, tread on them"

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#79
Fun fact: When they switch to Axon Outposts instead, just know that they have Amazon Sidewalk modules inside them, too for backdoor C2 to Axon.

(Go check the FCC docs for X4GS06009 and note that there's a Quectel KG100S sitting on the power supply board. https://fccid.io/X4GS06009)

Re: LAPD lets contract with surveillance giant Flock expire

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salem, Oregon, assembled its own using OpenALPR and an on-prem server. There are plenty of reasonable criticisms of that approach too, but it's currently the farthest thing from Flock on the municipal mass-surveillance tech scale bar that I'm aware of.

"The system does not utilize facial recognition and does not have automated functions, such as automatically running license plates through the state Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) or Law Enforcement Data System (LEDS) databases. All license plates must still be verified by an investigator and then individually queried through the appropriate database." This sounds like a lot more than your average flock installa…

AGPL-licensed: https://github.com/openalpr/openalpr

(Not updated in years though.)

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