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Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

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Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#291

Post by antonvs »

teamonkey wrote: post #172
antonvs wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The characterization as “excessive” is subjective. If you disagree, what are your objective criteria for making that claim? You fundamentally can’t give a correct answer to that, because it requires defining a threshold, and that’s subjective. If people seriously think claims like this are “objective”, I weep for our collective understanding of reality.

Of course it’s excessive. Questions should be asked about any one industry using 23% of a nation’s generating capacity, when it was not built for this purpose. Of course it’s excessive. Ireland’s electricity is not cheap or in such plentiful supply that homes are not affective by this. These data centres are driving up the electricity prices for everyone in Ireland. Of course it’s excessive. There are only 80 datacen…

None of your statements give objective conclusions, unless one accepts as premises the implicit value judgments and other subjective assessments they depend on.

It shouldn't surprise you to know that there are people who disagree with everything you're saying. Do you really believe they're all "objectively wrong"? That's the territory of religion - "only my beliefs are the real ones".

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#292

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

erentz wrote: post #181
cadamsdotcom wrote: post #135

Just to be contrarian: what we're talking about is "electricity use from economic activity". This should be good for Ireland but they'll need to build energy capacity to keep up. It's misplaced to be angry about datacenters themselves. There IS value being created, or people wouldn't use the tools. Construction creates jobs, manufacturing the machines in the buildings is a huge global industry; the value people gain…

> There IS value being created, or people wouldn't use the tools. But for who and where is it realized? Ireland’s massive data centers aren’t there to serve Ireland’s tiny population. The value is exported overseas and profits realized overseas. So what really matters for Ireland (and any country/region hosting these data centers) is whether the benefits in terms of capital spending + the few ongoing jobs created out…

Well, speaking as an Irish citizen, the actual problem here is that we haven't built as much wind and solar as we were expecting to when many of those data centers were being developed.

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#293

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

alephnerd wrote: post #206
erentz wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There IS value being created, or people wouldn't use the tools. But for who and where is it realized? Ireland’s massive data centers aren’t there to serve Ireland’s tiny population. The value is exported overseas and profits realized overseas. So what really matters for Ireland (and any country/region hosting these data centers) is whether the benefits in terms of capital spending + the few ongoing jobs created out…

> So what really matters for Ireland (and any country/region hosting these data centers) is whether the benefits in terms of capital spending + the few ongoing jobs created outweighs any increased electricity and environmental costs faced by everyone else Exactly, which is WHY IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland have been a data center first policy in Ireland since the mid-2000s. Heck, the only reason Microsoft and Go…

I think that you might have some details wrong here.

Like, Ireland supplied basically all of the English docs for windows 95, and Apple have been in cork since the 80s.

More generally, the reason tech companies came to Ireland since the 2000s was for tax purposes, which ironically enough lead to us getting bucket loads of corporate tax after the OECD reforms.

And no, Ireland in the 2000s was not developmentally the same as Greece, you may be thinking of the 80s and 90s.

But yeah, the only reason we don't look as indebted as Greece is due to our ludicrous GDP figures.

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#294

Post by rsynnott »

tialaramex wrote: post #287
rsynnott wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France sends us about 2.5GW and we sent Ireland about 500 MW. It's also a two-way flow; while UK Ireland transmission tends to net out to UK->Ireland, it's fairly variable; to a large extent whichever side currently has too much wind is the donor.

I believe all of the modern UK interconnects are bi-directional. Most countries have cheaper power when our wind doesn't blow but can't get enough cheap wind power from us when it does. Current government plans don't seem to take this into account. 40GW of wind power doesn't seem like "basically enough" when you're doing 10GW exports. They did at least ban "rebidding" where you get permission to build a wind farm, bu…

Yeah, Ireland also primarily exports surplus wind power. Trouble is, when it’s windy in Ireland, it is also often windy in the UK, so no demand, so curtailment is necessary.

The HVDC line to France will help with this; it will less frequently be very windy in Ireland and the UK _and_ France.

Longer term, though, everywhere is going to need a lot more storage (and possibly smart variable demand; remains to be seen how practical that is at scale.)

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#295

Post by spwa4 »

infinite_spin wrote: post #282
spwa4 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, at the cost of removing at least double, and for FANG companies about triple, the tax revenue from other EU governments. And that's just counting company tax (and only specific companies, ie. this is why the "billionnaire tax" is so low, well, this is the EU component of it) (technically: FANG taxes in Ireland, in violation of OECD treaties, is 12.5%, and for other very large companies 15%. If your company is no…

Why should Ireland, a historically poor nation that has been exploited by European powers for centuries, be concerned with the taxes that other (much larger) governments collect? The entire point of tax sovereignty is to avoid this exact issue.

So they should take away other people's money because they can, because of stuff that happened a long time ago, and when they feel like they should be able to just take stuff from other people for some random long ago reason ?

I'm so exited finding someone like you! I'm much like Ireland. I was born desperately poor. My parents gave me second hand presents on , if that. I couldn't pay for my school things back then. I got "support" of child services until I, quite literally, threw them out (down a staircase to be exact), and then decided to study and fix things myself. I'm decently rich now, but not rich enough. Given that you support people just stealing because of not-valid past grievances ... Where do you live and where do you hide the cash?

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#296

Post by hinkley »

psd1 wrote: post #270
hinkley wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if anyone is wrong, they will only have to deal with it for 20-50 years, then they die and the next 5000 administrations have to deal with the literal fallout. If your uncle hitting his thumb meant everyone in his line and all of his neighbors would have a flat thumb for the next million years then the government would absolutely involve itself in hammer design and operational safety guidelines.

Fallout came from Chernobyl and Fat Boy. There is no fallout from a reactor that doesn't explode, and Chernobyl exploded for human reasons rather than structural ones. Yes, waste lasts a long time. That's mostly in the form of a pond of slightly clicky water. The fear is overblown. See http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2026/ph241/teixeira2/

People gave their lives to dig underneath Chernobyl. If they hadn’t the aquifers in Eastern Europe would be radioactive for the next million years.

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#297

Post by gravypod »

rogerrogerr wrote: post #237
gravypod wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an article posted on HN recently about the asymmetry in cost of providing an ambulance service vs the cost of the per-ride service. The cost of a medical degree, and the training on top of the degrees, may seem waaay too high but I am sure that when you need the service you want it to be there. I think if I break a leg, need an emergency surgery, etc I will be okay with $0.00001 of my taxes going into the p…

At least in the US, the dudes who pick you up in the ambulance do not have medical degrees. They have various certifications that are far less than med-school levels of debt.

I think part of this is the organization of the training. Cuba trains doctors for likely much less than $500k USD. Also, the training we give to a US solider is very expensive but we have "productionized" the process. The people who provide the training are employed by the military, the training is standardized, etc. Maybe a similar approach could work for other skills. Remember, our military trains surgical assistants and nuclear engineers! These are expensive degrees but they manage to do it.

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#298

Post by [deleted] »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #288
erentz wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There IS value being created, or people wouldn't use the tools. But for who and where is it realized? Ireland’s massive data centers aren’t there to serve Ireland’s tiny population. The value is exported overseas and profits realized overseas. So what really matters for Ireland (and any country/region hosting these data centers) is whether the benefits in terms of capital spending + the few ongoing jobs created out…

So we hating exports now? Is this post-globalist forum now?

[deleted]

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#299

Post by throw0101a »

vel0city wrote: post #195
vishalontheline wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees of construction companies, electricity companies and the data center, among others, all get paid, no?

The construction companies don't continue to get paid much after the construction is complete.

> The construction companies don't continue to get paid much after the construction is complete.

Perhaps construction companies could hire some copyright lobbyists to get a law passed so they're paid 75 years after the creation of the work.

Re: Irish datacenters now guzzle 23% of the country's electricity

#300

Post by alephnerd »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #293
alephnerd wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what really matters for Ireland (and any country/region hosting these data centers) is whether the benefits in terms of capital spending + the few ongoing jobs created outweighs any increased electricity and environmental costs faced by everyone else Exactly, which is WHY IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland have been a data center first policy in Ireland since the mid-2000s. Heck, the only reason Microsoft and Go…

I think that you might have some details wrong here. Like, Ireland supplied basically all of the English docs for windows 95, and Apple have been in cork since the 80s. More generally, the reason tech companies came to Ireland since the 2000s was for tax purposes, which ironically enough lead to us getting bucket loads of corporate tax after the OECD reforms. And no, Ireland in the 2000s was not developmentally the s…

> Ireland supplied basically all of the English docs for windows 95,

Yep, but the bulk of R&D FDI and the expansion of Ireland's tech scene only arose after Google opened it's campus in Dublin, which itself was in large part to help coordinate Google's data center expansion - especially after acquiring Colt.

> More generally, the reason tech companies came to Ireland since the 2000s was for tax purposes

Not really from personal experience - the tax incentives were nice, but Netherlands also provided a similar tax regime to Ireland during that time period.

It was the data center buildout and incentives by IDA and Enterprise Ireland that were the foundation of Ireland becoming the "Silicon Republic".

Google wouldn't have expanded without the Colt acquisition. Microsoft wouldn't have expanded it's footprint in Ireland without the Data Electronics partnership. Amazon, Vodafone, EMC, Yahoo, and other early 2000s tech companies that helped seed much of the tech industry in Ireland today.

> And no, Ireland in the 2000s was not developmentally the same as Greece

At least with regards to HDI and other developmental indicators, Ireland and Greece both overlapped well into the 2000s. The divergence between the two only kicked in after 2008.

> Apple have been in cork since the 80s...

And was limited to assembly before shifting that to China in the 2000s.

Apple would have entirely left Ireland around then as well if IDA and Enterprise Ireland didn't incentivize Apple to hire support and supply chain staff in Cork - heck, Apple employs around 3% of Cork as a result now.

> But yeah, the only reason we don't look as indebted as Greece is due to our ludicrous GDP figures

It's not just about being indebted. Ireland's median household incomes now significantly exceed those of the UK despite similar CoL - which wasn't a guarantee in the 2000s.

------

Ireland becoming what it is today was not a given in the 2000s - the IDA and Enterprise Ireland pushed boulders to seed the data center ecosystem which helped build the DevOps and Infra ecosystem which then helped seed the domestic ecosystem that exists today.

All the major foreign players in Ireland's tech scene had the option to open in the UK, Netherlands, and Germany as well, but it was the IDA's hard work and foresight in recognizing that data centers and DevOps would allow Ireland to leverage the cloud hyperscaler boom and climb the value chain which allowed Ireland to reach the point it is at today.

Kneecapping an industry that is the bedrock of Ireland's economy will not help Ireland's existing issues - it will only make them worse by incentivizing the industry to shift to competitors like Czechia, Poland, and Romania (all three of whom have adopted Ireland's playbook). Even the UK has begun to use Ireland's playbook to retain it's tech scene.

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