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Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

raymyers.org

281–290 of 862 posts

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#281
Every one feels a bit wrong here.

Zig’s author, Andrew Kelley is out of line here.

> We made futile attempts to guide them towards better programming practices. There were a few exceptional heroes who did their very best in a dysfunctional company. You know who you are. But you can't stop a rising tide.

https://andrewkelley.me/post/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.ht...

So not only is Zig written by amateurs, but these amateurs also don’t know how to run a company?

Who is Andrew to say this, Oven got an exit. As far as their investors and owners are concerned that’s the only real reason to exist.

Assuming ( big assumption to be fair) all the early Bun employees got a fair amount of equity they’re all rich now. That’s a much better outcome than most startups.

At my first startup we had 6 day work weeks. I still remember staying up until 2 or 3am manually installing Postgres again and again. All we got was a paycheck. Although for me I went from a minimum wage earning college dropout to a 6 figure software engineer( at a new company).

As for actual coding… LLMs will always do better work in a well known stable language than something relatively new.

I had to give up on trying to get LLMs to write working Haxe code. Haxe is too niche for LLMs to handle.

I personally can’t stand Rust, it feels like it’s designed for machines to write. Zig is designed for humans. Outside of a 200k+ job offer you won’t see me learning Rust.

Zig is rather pleasant. I can imagine writing a side project with it.

Finally, my QA background is screaming in rage. You expect me to trust a project that you basically vibe coded in a week as a key part of my workflow?

You know it works because the automated tests ( which I guess you also vibe coded) pass ?

By that logic say I don’t like Rust, can I spend a few thousand in Fable tokens and ship DinnerRoll( Bun in D).

Is that enough to raise a VC round?

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#282
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get abandoned because they get generated on a whim. Sunk cost fallacy can be a feature: if you have spent a lot of blood, sweat, and tears on a project, you are more likely to push it through adversity and the doldrums that inevitably one will encounter. If all it took was one of those momentarily brilliant ideas and a prompt on Claude to produce something, there is no attachment whatsoever to it. Speaking as th…

I wonder how much they spend on this rewrite, in tokens and $ using commercial pricing

I saw an estimate of around 160k $ somewhere in HN comments about the rewrite.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is that better than the Zig codebase you started with? In contrast with the Zig codebase, you now have clear well-scoped unsafe boundaries you can iteratively fix one by one. This was not the case before.

> clear well-scoped unsafe boundaries This is not done by blindly porting Zig code 1:1 and calling it a day. You do have to make conscious decisions about code architecture to manage Unsafe code, since you need choose the right invariants for your Safe Rust code to conform inside the module (Note that unsafe pollutes the whole module containing it, not just the code inside the unsafe block!)

There's only one language that's more dangerous than C and that is unsafe Rust. I say that only half-jokingly.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#284
post #192
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now if that's further migrated to safe Rust, put into production & gathered feedback from lots of users, yes then you have something. Obviously they have to start somewhere if they want to get to safe rust with a considerable degree of battle testing. So they decided to start with just a transliteration and go from there. I think the Zig people are really just concerned that maybe Zig itself is a DOA language becau…

> Just search "segfault" on the Zig issue tracker and you'll see why people are starting to be skeptical of the future utility of such a language in the face of something like Rust. Zig has 110 open "segfault" issues [1] versus Rust's 175 open "segfault" issues [2]. So, by your logic, Rust is also bad. edit: I was just trying to point out that the parent's "just search segfault" argument is lazy. Also, Zig is still i…

Without base rate you're comparing #X in a city vs #Y in a continent and drawing conclusions from that.

It's not even wrong.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet one is technical and the one you actually got a negative opinion about a programming language supposedly isn't? I knew it was gonna happen at one point, guess I didn't believe it'd happen so soon, but I still can't believe that nowadays people make choices about what programming language to used based on what semi-celebrity they like the most, and it's all about emotional arguments. What happened and since when i…

> what semi-celebrity they like the most The language in question here is maintained by a BDFL, which means that one person has outsized influence on the language, and it's direction. In this context, I find it reasonable that if someone is ticked off by that BDFL, they might second guess the direction of the language itself. Since the opinions and emotions of that BDFL _will_ end up in the language and it's communit…

> The language in question here is maintained by a BDFL, which means that one person has outsized influence on the language, and it's direction.

Seems like a strange perspective, isn't it expected (and even wanted) that if you have a BDFL, they have the most influence on the language and its direction? That's why they're BDFL, that cannot be outsized, it's perfectly sized for what it's explicitly trying to be, that's the entire point.

> In this context, I find it reasonable that if someone is ticked off by that BDFL, they might second guess the direction of the language itself. Since the opinions and emotions of that BDFL _will_ end up in the language and it's community.

Yeah, I suppose in the new daily reality where we care more about what opinions people hold, rather than what quality, reliability and so on they actually produce, this does make a lot of sense. Personally I never used Linux because of how much I love/despise Torvalds, I've basically never cared about what he thinks, never thought it was important either, as long as Linux continues to work for me.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#286
post #132

"Anthropic is actively campaigning to end software engineering" - good but are they the only ones? I do not like Anthropic after their recent locking mechanisms. I use opencode with GLM, Mimo, Qwen, and what not. I use Codex as well. Anthropic does not need to tell me that much of software engineering is being re-written. In my opinion, the costs have crashed. I build commercial projects at 1/3rd my earlier costs. I…

You have a very fitting username

I am not sure if you mean good, bad or ugly but yeah this username is perhaps with me since 1998. I used to hang around in MIT, Stanford and many other Uni IRC rooms. I was this odd username from a far away city. Tim Berners-Lee once asked me about the real person behind the username. I almost shat my pants but somehow I answered.

I am sure you have a great story for your username and the blank HN profile too.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#287
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now if that's further migrated to safe Rust, put into production & gathered feedback from lots of users, yes then you have something. Obviously they have to start somewhere if they want to get to safe rust with a considerable degree of battle testing. So they decided to start with just a transliteration and go from there. I think the Zig people are really just concerned that maybe Zig itself is a DOA language becau…

I would say the flagship Zig project is TigerBeetle, not Bun.

some may argue for ghostty but yeah :)

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#288
post #3

Did we read the same Anthropic and Andrew Kelly's posts? Anthropic is not in the programming language market; their post about rewriting Bun in Rust is full of technical details that led to improving the end product for their users. Zig's response is a sour opinion piece full of personal attacks. For context, I'm using Codex and have no interest in either Zig or Rust, so just observing this drama from the sidelines.

> Anthropic is not in the programming language market; their post about rewriting Bun in Rust is full of technical details that led to improving the end product for their users Anthropic absolutely is in the programming language market. If/since AI makes rewrites to certain languages relatively easy, a success story will tie the given language(s) to the given AI company. Rust may have a tremendous success in the futu…

>Jarred has managed public relations very poorly (e.g. ghosting the Zig foundation)

I actually love the use of ghosting in this post. It is almost a Freudian slip about how Zig looks like from the view of outsiders. Zig moves exactly like how toxic exes do. They point fingers, make passive-aggressive statements, unnecessarily air out dirty laundry, and downplay all of the good their partner has done during the relationship.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#289

I think like most people, I don’t have a problem with Andrew “calling a spade a spade,” even if I find his reasoning motivated. The bigger problem with the post is that it talks out of both ends of the mouth: it’s clearly meant as a personal attack, but also insists that it isn’t. When I read the post, my first thought was that I wouldn’t want to build things in Zig, because any technical decision I make, good or bad…

> I can’t conceive of the leadership of the Python or Rust or any other community I’ve ever worked with doing something like that.

At least for Rust, part of this is because there is no BDFL, by design. Python has moved away from the BDFL model as well, IIRC. Individual contributors can get mad and write angry personal attacks, but there’s no face of the language like there is with Zig.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#290
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now if that's further migrated to safe Rust, put into production & gathered feedback from lots of users, yes then you have something. Obviously they have to start somewhere if they want to get to safe rust with a considerable degree of battle testing. So they decided to start with just a transliteration and go from there. I think the Zig people are really just concerned that maybe Zig itself is a DOA language becau…

I would say the flagship Zig project is TigerBeetle, not Bun.

If TigerBeetle is the Zig flagship then Zig is untenable for almost any team, because Tiger Style is untenable for almost any team. No, I think that Tiger Style makes Zig mostly unimportant.

On the other hand, as a corporate backer for Zig, TigerBeetle is definitely a big deal.

But in terms of exemplary and imitable projects in the ecosystem I would think something like Ghostty is the safer label for "flagship".

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